1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
2
-----------------------------x
3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER et al.,:
:
4 Plaintiffs, :
:
5 :
v. : Civil Action
6 : No. 96-2123 (RCL)
FEDERAL BUREAU OF :
7 INVESTIGATION et al., :
:
8 Defendants. :
-----------------------------x
9
Washington, D.C.
10
Monday, March 16, 1998
11
12 Deposition of
13 JAMES CARVILLE
14 a witness, called for examination by counsel
15 for Plaintiffs pursuant to notice and
16 agreement of counsel, beginning at
17 approximately 10:13 a.m. at the offices of
18 Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street S.W.,
19 Washington, D.C., before Joan V. Cain, notary
20 public in and for the District of Columbia,
21 when were present on behalf of the respective
22 parties:
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE
Judicial Watch
4 501 School Street S.W., Suite 725
Washington, D.C. 20024
5 (202) 593-8442
6 On behalf of Government Defendants:
7 JULIA FAYNGOLD, ESQUIRE
ALLISON C. GILES, ESQUIRE
8 Federal Programs Branch
Civil Division
9 United States Department of Justice
901 E Street N.W.
10 Washington, D.C. 20530
(202) 524-3716
11
JON PIFER, ESQUIRE
12 Office of the General Counsel
Federal Bureau of Investigation
13 935 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20535
14 (202) 324-4522
15 SALLY PATRICIA PAXTON, ESQUIRE
Special Associate Counsel to the President
16 The White House
Washington, D.C.
17 (202) 456-5079
18 On behalf of Defendant Hilary Rodham Clinton:
19 PAUL B. GAFFNEY, ESQUIRE
Williams & Connolly
20 725 12th Street N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005
21 (202) 434-5803
22
3
1 APPEARANCES (CONT'D):
2 On behalf of Deponent:
3 JO BENNETT MARSH, ESQUIRE
McDaniel & Marsh
4 118 West Mulberry Street
Baltimore, Maryland 21201-3600
5 (410) 685-3810
6 On behalf of Witness Craig Livingstone:
7 DAVID S. COHEN, ESQUIRE
Miller Cassidy Larroca & Lewin, L.L.P.
8 2555 M Street N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20037-1302
9 (202) 833-6503
10
11 * * * * *
12
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15
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17
18
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20
21
22
4
1 C O N T E N T S
2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 6
4 CARVILLE DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
5 No. 1 - Subpoena, Attachments 12
6 No. 2 - Re-Notice of Deposition, 15
Attachments
7
No. 3 - Objection to Subpoena for 22
8 Production of Documents
9 No. 4 - Memorandum and Order 23
10 No. 5 - Article: "Carville's Delayed 33
Departure"
11
No. 6 - Declaration Under Penalty 37
12 of Perjury, Attachments
13 No. 7 - Fax, McDaniel to Klayman, 39
Attachments
14
No. 8 - Sketch 63
15
No. 9 - Filegate File 63
16
No. 10 - Judicial Watch File 63
17
No. 11 - Opinion, United States Court 77
18 of International Trade,
Attachments
19
No. 12 - February 23, 1997, News 103
20 Release
21 No. 13 - Kendall-Bennett Statement 182
22
5
1 CARVILLE DEPOSITION EXHIBITS (CONT'D): PAGE
2 No. 14 - February 23, 1998, Broadcast 202
Transcript
3
No. 15 - February 8, 1998, Broadcast 293
4 Transcript
5 No. 16 - Article: "Carville: I 317
Zapped Starr's Charges"
6
No. 17 - January 25, 1998, Broadcast 320
7 Transcript
8 No. 18 - Calendars 354
9 No. 19 - Livingstone Investigation 374
Report
10
No. 20 - "Gingrich Keeps His Promise" 412
11 Statement
12 No. 21 - "Selected Investigations" 415
List
13
No. 22 - Book Jacket, Attachment 425
14
No. 23 - Fax, Cohen to Klayman, 435
15 Attachment
16
* * * * *
17
18
19
20
21
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6
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This
3 is the video deposition of James Carville,
4 taken by counsel for Plaintiffs in the matter
5 of Carla Leslie Alexander et al. v. Federal
6 Bureau Of Investigation et al. held in the
7 U.S. District Court for the District of
8 Columbia, case number 96-2123, in the offices
9 of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street,
10 Southwest, on this date, March 16, 1998, and
11 at the time indicated on the video screen,
12 which is 10:13 a.m.
13 My name is Sylvanus Holley; I'm the
14 videographer. The court reporter today is
15 Joan Cain from the firm of Beta Reporting.
16 Will counsel now introduce
17 themselves?
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman on
19 behalf of Judicial Watch.
20 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, legal
21 assistant, Judicial Watch.
22 MR. BUSTION: Don Bustion,
7
1 attorney, Judicial Watch.
2 MR. GAFFNEY: Paul Gaffney on
3 behalf of the first lady.
4 MS. MARSH: Joe Bennett Marsh on
5 behalf of the deponent, James Carville.
6 MS. PAXTON: Sally Paxton with the
7 White House.
8 MS. GILES: Allison Giles with the
9 Department of Justice on behalf of EOP and
10 the FBI.
11 MR. COHEN: David Cohen on behalf
12 of Craig Livingstone.
13 MS. FAYNGOLD: Julia Fayngold with
14 the Department of Justice on behalf of the
15 EOP and the FBI.
16 MR. PIFER: John Pifer on behalf of
17 FBI.
18 Whereupon,
19 JAMES CARVILLE
20 was called as a witness and, having been
21 first duly sworn, was examined and testified
22 as follows:
8
1 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Mr. Carville, have you ever been
4 deposed before?
5 A Yes, twice.
6 Q When was that?
7 A One time last year sometime in
8 connection with a lawsuit in California, and
9 another time in --
10 Q Let's stop there. What was the
11 name of that lawsuit?
12 A I don't know the name of the
13 lawsuit, but Bill ���� was a defendant and it
14 had to do with somebody sued him for -- it
15 was a referendum for ���� a television spot,
16 and I was called by the defendant to talk
17 about political advertising.
18 Q What court was that in? Was it in
19 Los Angeles? San Francisco? San Diego?
20 A The deposition took place in San
21 Francisco, but I think the court was in
22 Monterey County.
9
1 Q State court?
2 A Yeah, I'm almost positive it's
3 state court.
4 Q The second time?
5 A Was in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, in
6 connection with -- when I worked in the
7 mayor's office an attorney was trying to
8 recover some fees for bond work he'd done by
9 the name of Fred Benton, and they called for
10 me to testify about what kind of work he did
11 or that kind of thing.
12 I mean, in neither one was I a
13 party to the suit. In one I was called I
14 guess as an expert and political advertiser.
15 I don't know what happened to the case. I
16 assumed it settled or so long I hadn't heard
17 any more, and I don't know what happened to
18 Fred Benton's case because -- I'm pretty sure
19 that was his name and I'm trying to think. I
20 think that's the only two times I've ever
21 been deposed.
22 Q Have you ever been under oath
10
1 before other than providing an affidavit,
2 giving oral testimony under oath?
3 A I was under oath in those two
4 depositions.
5 Q Anything other than that?
6 A I used to be a lawyer, but I don't
7 think we ever were under oath. Normal course
8 of practice under oath. I don't think -- I
9 really don't think so, Mr. Klayman.
10 Q You are a lawyer, are you not?
11 A Well, I said, in an absolute,
12 broadest sense of the word. They said of the
13 Attorney General of Louisiana one time, you
14 want to hide anything from me put it in a law
15 book.
16 Q You did go to law school and you
17 passed the bar exam?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Do you still pay bar dues?
20 A Inactive status, yes.
21 Q In Louisiana and where else, if
22 anywhere?
11
1 A Just Louisiana.
2 Q So you do know what it means to be
3 under oath?
4 A I do.
5 Q That means not just telling the
6 truth but everything you know, not shading
7 it. Understand that?
8 A I can only tell you what I know.
9 Q Let's just as a preliminary matter
10 ask this deposition convened at 10:15 a.m.
11 I'm not being accusatory in any way. There
12 was difficulty trying to find where this
13 office was located. I want to have an
14 understanding as to whether there is any kind
15 of time constraint that's going to arise
16 later in terms of this deposition today.
17 MS. MARSH: My understanding is
18 that there's an order entered in the case
19 that allows depositions to go for six hours
20 and no more, so we understand that we're
21 subject to that order and we'd like to go
22 through with as few breaks as possible so
12
1 Mr. Carville can go to South America.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: That would be fine.
3 I just wanted to make sure some time in the
4 afternoon we aren't informed by surprise that
5 Mr. Carville has to leave.
6 MS. MARSH: No. We intend to be
7 here for six hours if that's what it
8 requires.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: There were certain
10 documents requested in the subpoena, and I'll
11 ask that the court reporter mark, as Exhibit
12 1, the subpoena that was served on you,
13 Mr. Carville, on February 24, 1998.
14 (Carville deposition Exhibit
15 No. 1 was marked for
16 identification.)
17 MS. MARSH: Do you have a copy of
18 that exhibit for me?
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Before I get into
20 this, just let the record reflect my
21 continuing objection with regard to the
22 presence of Ms. Sally Paxton from The White
13
1 House as well as Mr. Cohen on behalf of
2 Mr. Livingstone, both of whom are material
3 witnesses in the case, and I ask that they
4 not consult with the witness during this
5 testimony.
6 MS. PAXTON: We note your objection
7 and we reject it.
8 MR. COHEN: And I will refer you to
9 what I said at the outset of the
10 Stephanopolous deposition. Your request that
11 I not consult with the witness is something
12 that I have no intention of abiding by.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm happy to get your
14 clear indication of that yet once more. Let
15 the record also reflect that Mr. Cohen is
16 here and his position is that his client is
17 not a party to this case at this present
18 time, yet you are sitting at table with
19 counsel.
20 MR. COHEN: Right. As I recall, on
21 the Geraldo Rivera show the other night you
22 said that the depositions were open to the
14
1 public and one could attend.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not seeking to
3 say that you can't attend, Mr. Cohen. I just
4 wanted to note that were allowing the
5 courtesy to be here but your flippant remarks
6 obviously speak for themselves.
7 MR. COHEN: Didn't you say that?
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Mr. Carville, would you please look
10 at Exhibit 1?
11 A Exhibit A --
12 MS. MARSH: Do you want him to look
13 at the one that's actually marked or my copy.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: If you'd like to look
15 at the one that's marked, that's fine.
16 THE WITNESS: Okay. Now, Exhibit 1
17 is this whole thing? Okay. Go ahead.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Right. Take a look at that,
20 Mr. Carville.
21 MS. MARSH: Do you want him to look
22 at any particular part of it?
15
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Just take a look at
2 it. I'm going to ask him to confirm that
3 that's a copy of the subpoena duces tecum he
4 received on February 24.
5 THE WITNESS: Best of my memory it
6 looks like it. I mean, I can't -- this is
7 not the actual --
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what
9 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
10 Exhibit 2.
11 (Carville Deposition Exhibit
12 No. 2 was marked for
13 identification.)
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Exhibit 2 is a
15 renotice of deposition duces tecum calling
16 for your attendance here today at 10:00 a.m.
17 MS. MARSH: Was this served on
18 Mr. Carville with the subpoena?
19 MR. KLAYMAN: This was not. This
20 was served on you, Ms. Marsh, the renotice of
21 deposition, Exhibit 2.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16
1 Q Have you ever seen Exhibit 2
2 before, Mr. Carville?
3 A I don't think. The one that I saw
4 has this kind of cover thing on it.
5 Q Exhibit 1?
6 A Right.
7 Q Now, after you received that
8 subpoena, what if anything did you do with
9 it?
10 A Well, sent it to Ms. Marsh and I
11 looked -- I went through each of the subpoena
12 through the things that you asked for and
13 then went through my -- whatever I had to try
14 to find what you needed subject to Ms. Marsh
15 objecting to some things in that.
16 Q Have you produced any documents
17 today?
18 MS. MARSH: He has some, yes.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: May we have them?
20 MS. MARSH: As you know we have
21 served on you an objection to certain of the
22 document requests in here.
17
1 MR. KLAYMAN: When was that? We
2 have no knowledge of an objection.
3 MS. MARSH: I mailed it to you last
4 week.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: We have not seen it.
6 Do you have another copy of that?
7 MS. MARSH: I have one in my
8 pleadings file that I can show to you if you
9 want to have somebody make a copy of it, they
10 can. It was mailed to you on the 10th.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q While we're waiting for that copy,
13 Mr. Carville, did you search for each and
14 every category of documents requested in this
15 subpoena?
16 A I did.
17 Q Where did you search?
18 A I can't read this one.
19 MS. MARSH: But that's the
20 subpoena. This is not.
21 THE WITNESS: Okay. But, look, I
22 mean, I don't know where I searched in my
18
1 office for things are kept.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Where is your office?
4 A 112 5th Street, Southeast.
5 Q How long have you been there?
6 A I think we moved there -- was it
7 November of -- I can't remember even where I
8 live. November of '96.
9 Q Who's we? There's more than one
10 individual occupy that space?
11 A Well, we rent a house, my wife and
12 I and baby rent a place in Washington. We
13 live out in Virginia but when I'm in town, I
14 stay there. When I say "we" it's all one
15 building.
16 Q That's a house? It's not an
17 office?
18 A It's kind of a basement kind of
19 deal. It's an office in the basement.
20 Q Does anybody work with you at that
21 office?
22 A Mm-hmm.
19
1 Q Who?
2 A Todd Dilorenzo.
3 Q And how long has he been with you?
4 A Since -- I really can't remember
5 when Todd started because he was an intern
6 and then he sort of, you know, bled into the
7 position he was in. My guess is since '95
8 but that's just a guess.
9 Q Where did he work before he worked
10 for you?
11 A He was an intern at the White House
12 and wrote a letter asking to leave and wanted
13 to work for me.
14 Q At the Clinton White House?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Who did he work for at the Clinton
17 white house?
18 A I don't know.
19 Q What office did he work in?
20 A I don't know.
21 Q Who else works with you?
22 A Math Reames. He's my nephew.
20
1 Q How is that spelled?
2 A R-e-a-m-e-s.
3 Q Did he work anywhere before you
4 joining you?
5 A He was in school in Louisiana, and
6 I let him work for me and he goes to the
7 University of Maryland at night and he also
8 kind of lives downstairs.
9 Q When you say these people work for
10 you are they working for you personally or
11 are they working for a company?
12 A They're working for me personally.
13 Q Do you pay them personally?
14 A Mm-hmm.
15 Q You have a company that's located
16 there, do you not, or a nonprofit
17 organization?
18 A Well, it was on Pennsylvania
19 Avenue, and in terms of -- what we do is -- I
20 don't have anybody at the nonprofit at this
21 moment. I just kind of -- I guess it was a
22 nonprofit.
21
1 Q When these people receive their
2 pay, do they get pay on a regular basis?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Do they get checks or do they get
5 cash?
6 A They get whatever the bookkeeper
7 gives them. I mean, they get a check.
8 Q Whose check is it?
9 A James Carville.
10 Q What bank is it drawn on?
11 A Signet, I think, but I don't know.
12 Q Anybody else work with you there?
13 A Kevin Murphy.
14 Q And what was Kevin Murphy's job
15 before joining you?
16 A He was a writer, and it's a young
17 guy just out of college, and best I can
18 remember he did free-lance stuff.
19 Q For who primarily?
20 A I don't remember. I could call and
21 find out.
22 Q Anyone else?
22
1 A That's it.
2 Q Does he get paid by you personally
3 as well?
4 A He does.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask that the
6 court reporter mark as Exhibit 3 the
7 purported objection of James Carville to
8 subpoena for documents. I don't see a
9 certificate of service on here. Was a
10 certificate of service on here?
11 MS. MARSH: No, there wasn't. We
12 served on you consistent with the rules on
13 the 10th of March.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: I would take issue
15 with that, Ms. Marsh, particularly in light
16 of the history of this case and this
17 deposition.
18 MS. MARSH: I'm sure you would.
19 (Carville Deposition Exhibit
20 No. 3 was marked for
21 identification.)
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
23
1 Q Do you keep a mail log at your
2 firm, Ms. Marsh?
3 MS. MARSH: I'm not under
4 deposition, Mr. Klayman.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I thought maybe you
6 would proffer for the court.
7 MS. MARSH: I'm not here to answer
8 your questions today.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify this. I ask
10 the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 4, a
11 copy of the memorandum and order of the court
12 of March 13, 1998.
13 (Carville Deposition Exhibit
14 No. 4 was marked for
15 identification.)
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Have you ever seen this court order
18 before, Mr. Carville?
19 A I have.
20 Q When did you see it?
21 A Friday, I guess.
22 Q Who provided it to you?
24
1 A Ms. Marsh faxed it to me.
2 Q Are you aware that in this order
3 the court rules that you and counsel have
4 misled the court?
5 MS. MARSH: Objection. Misstates
6 what's in the order.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q You can respond.
9 MS. MARSH: Do you want to read it?
10 THE WITNESS: What is the
11 relevance --
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q I'm just asking whether you read it
14 and if that's your understanding.
15 A I understand the motion was denied.
16 Q Have you ever read this order
17 before, Exhibit 4?
18 A Yeah, I read through it. I mean, I
19 haven't gone through it with a fine-toothed
20 comb.
21 Q Is it your understanding the court
22 has ruled that you and your counsel misled
25
1 the court with regard to the dates of your
2 deposition?
3 MS. MARSH: Objection.
4 THE WITNESS: I mean, I don't
5 see -- give me the relevant sentence where he
6 says it.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q I'm just asking whether you read
9 it. The order speaks for itself.
10 MS. MARSH: You're asking him
11 whether it states a certain thing. You're
12 asking more than whether he read it. If
13 you're going to read it, read the whole
14 thing, James.
15 THE WITNESS: If you point me to
16 the language. It says my departure was on
17 March 16, I think, is essentially the way
18 that I read it.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Other than the fact that the order
21 was denied, having read this complaint last
22 Friday, Mr. Carville, what was your
26
1 understanding as to the court's position
2 vis-a-vis your candor and truthfulness
3 towards the tribunal concerning the date of
4 this deposition.
5 MS. MARSH: You said "complaint."
6 I think you meant "order."
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Order.
8 THE WITNESS: My understanding is,
9 is that the judge -- the thing that he
10 expressed in there was that the original
11 travel itinerary we sent over had us
12 departing the night of March 16, I guess it
13 is, and then subsequent to that I said that I
14 was leaving the night of March 15. I mean,
15 that's my best interpretation.
16 Q And you read this order carefully
17 last Friday?
18 A I read it pretty good. I mean, I
19 didn't read it -- I mean, I knew it said that
20 I had to be here today but I didn't read
21 it -- you know, for every detail but it told
22 me to show up.
27
1 Q At the time that you read it, was
2 it your view, having read it, that the court
3 was being critical of your behavior and your
4 counsel's behavior?
5 MS. MARSH: Objection.
6 THE WITNESS: Well, I mean, the
7 judge -- the way that I read it is he thought
8 I could be here and thought I was going to
9 leave the night of Monday the 16th, anyway,
10 and probably didn't --
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q So the judge wasn't critical of
13 your behavior in your opinion?
14 A Look, you can characterize it. He
15 certainly wasn't praising it, but he seemed
16 to indicate that he thought that my flight
17 was going to leave on the night of March 16
18 and I could be here. But --
19 MS. MARSH: Wait till he asks a
20 question.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Turn your attention to page 12 of
28
1 the court's order, the bottom. I'm reading
2 the last line, "In light of the entire
3 panoply of facts currently before the court,
4 the only logical conclusion this court can
5 reach is that Marsh and Carville sought to
6 mislead this court from the outset and to
7 delay this deposition. There was simply no
8 other explanation as to why Marsh and
9 Carville have not been completely forthcoming
10 with the court from the outset of this
11 unnecessary travail." You read that last
12 Friday, did you not?
13 A Boy, I don't know if -- I assume I
14 did.
15 MS. MARSH: That was all his
16 question was, did you read it last Friday.
17 THE WITNESS: I assume I did.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q That is being critical at a minimum
20 with you and Ms. Marsh, is it not?
21 MS. MARSH: Objection.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
29
1 Q Based on your understanding of what
2 you just read?
3 A It says while the court understands
4 misinterpret an order in good faith -- he was
5 I think criticizing my counsel, but, anyway,
6 yes, the judge was critical.
7 Q As a lawyer, you understand what
8 this means, correct?
9 MS. MARSH: What do you mean what
10 it means? What do you mean by that?
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q What it means when the court says
13 that you misled the court. You understand
14 the gravity of that, do you not?
15 MS. MARSH: Objection. He's not
16 here as a lawyer today.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Do you understand the gravity of
19 that, Mr. Carville?
20 A Well, no one would like to have a
21 judge, you know what I mean -- in my belief
22 is I did not mislead the judge. I would have
30
1 preferred, you know, that the deposition be
2 on the 24th so I could have gone but the
3 judge is the guy that's in charge and do what
4 he says.
5 Q My question was do you understand
6 the gravity of when a court makes a ruling
7 that an individual or entity has misled the
8 court? You understand that's a very serious
9 manner?
10 MS. MARSH: Generally, you mean?
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Generally.
12 MS. MARSH: Objection as to
13 relevance.
14 THE WITNESS: Look, I will say I
15 understand that the judge feels like we
16 provided him with something and he said that.
17 I'm sorry that he did and I'm here and I
18 don't have a -- you know, I view when the
19 judge says something to be a serious thing,
20 he's a serious man.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q You're aware that there is a case
31
1 involving the healthcare task force, correct,
2 there was a case on that?
3 MS. MARSH: Objection as to
4 relevance.
5 THE WITNESS: I am aware of it.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q And you became aware of that more
8 than a year ago, did you not?
9 A I don't think so.
10 Q You knew there was a case
11 concerning the healthcare task force?
12 A I knew there was a case I don't
13 know when I became aware of it.
14 Q And you knew that there were
15 sanctions with regard to Ira Magaziner's
16 affidavit, did you not? You knew about that,
17 didn't you?
18 A I knew Ira got some kind of
19 sanction, but I didn't know what it was.
20 Q And you knew the reason for the
21 sanction was because there was a finding that
22 individuals and entities had misled this
32
1 court, correct?
2 MS. GILES: Objection. The record
3 in that other case speaks for itself.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q You can respond.
6 A I did not follow that closely but I
7 am aware that there was some sanctions with
8 that but I don't know the details.
9 Q And in fact you've commented about
10 this from time to time in the media, have you
11 not, the healthcare task force case involving
12 Ira Magaziner?
13 MS. MARSH: Objection.
14 THE WITNESS: I may have.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q And you knew that the sanctions
17 were issued by the same judge as this case?
18 A I did. I was aware of that.
19 Q And you knew that before you were
20 served with this subpoena by Judicial Watch,
21 correct?
22 MS. MARSH: Objection as to
33
1 relevance.
2 THE WITNESS: Well, yeah.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Now, turning to what
4 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
5 Exhibit 5.
6 (Carville Deposition Exhibit
7 No. 5 was marked for
8 identification.)
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Exhibit 5 is an article which
11 appears in the Style section of The
12 Washington Post of today, March 16. Have you
13 seen this?
14 A I saw it this morning.
15 Q You saw it this morning?
16 A Mm-hmm.
17 Q You talked with somebody from the
18 Reliable Source column of The Washington Post
19 Friday or over the weekend, didn't you not?
20 A Maybe it was -- no. Sunday. Last
21 night.
22 Q It was last night?
34
1 A Yeah.
2 Q Who did you talk to?
3 A ����.
4 Q And you gave her some information
5 about the court's order, did you not?
6 A No, she had a copy. She just
7 called.
8 Q In fact, you told her the reason
9 that you were called in for your deposition
10 today was because Larry Klayman had been
11 called a twerp by you?
12 A No, I did not.
13 Q What was the reason you told her
14 that you were being deposed today as opposed
15 to being deposed later?
16 A I said the judge made me. She
17 called me and apparently she had the ruling.
18 I assumed that you faxed it to her and she
19 called me and I said no such thing. She just
20 called me to get a quote to put in there.
21 Q You provided this quote? Is it
22 accurate: "'I consider myself to be a good
35
1 citizen. When I am required to be somewhere
2 I will comply,' said Carville"?
3 A Yeah.
4 Q "Who was none too pleased"?
5 A That's her opinion.
6 Q But the quote is yours and it's
7 accurate?
8 A It sounds like something I said but
9 I can't remember -- I don't take issue with
10 the accuracy of the quote.
11 Q You think it's a good citizen to be
12 found by a court to have misled it? Is that
13 your view?
14 MS. MARSH: Objection. Misstates
15 the fact.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Is that your view?
18 A Well, you know, my own personal
19 belief is I did not mislead the court and I'm
20 sorry the judge felt that way but I'm not the
21 judge, you know, but it was not my intention
22 to mislead the court in any way.
36
1 Q So the bottom line is,
2 Mr. Carville, this whole affair with regard
3 to scheduling your deposition and submissions
4 to the court, this is exemplary of what you
5 think of yourself as a good citizen?
6 MS. MARSH: Objection. Objection.
7 It's argumentative.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Is that correct?
10 MS. MARSH: Objection.
11 THE WITNESS: I feel like I did not
12 mislead the court. I'm sorry if the judge
13 feels that way but if that's what he said
14 that's what he said.
15 Q The bottom line is you don't think
16 you did anything wrong?
17 A No, I think what I put in there was
18 the facts as I knew them.
19 Q You don't think your attorney did
20 anything wrong?
21 A I don't know. I don't think she
22 did anything wrong.
37
1 Q So the bottom line is you have no
2 problem in providing information to a court
3 which is untrue, correct?
4 MS. MARSH: Objection. There's no
5 basis for asking that question.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q You can respond.
8 A Of course, I would not provide
9 information to the court that's untrue.
10 Q I'll show you what I'll ask the
11 court reporter to mark as Exhibit 5.
12 MR. COHEN: I think you're on 6,
13 Larry.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Six.
15 (Carville Deposition Exhibit
16 No. 6 was marked for
17 identification.)
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q Have you ever seen Exhibit 6
20 before?
21 A I have.
22 Q Who prepared Exhibit 6, the first
38
1 draft?
2 A My attorney.
3 Q This wasn't prepared on typewriters
4 at your office on Capitol Hill, was it?
5 A No, it was not.
6 Q Or anywhere else?
7 A No, sir, at her office.
8 Q Have you ever seen this declaration
9 before, which is Exhibit 6?
10 A I have.
11 Q Did you sign it in person or did
12 you sign it by fax?
13 A I signed it and then faxed it back.
14 Q And before you signed it, did you
15 review it carefully to make sure everything
16 in it was accurate?
17 A I did.
18 Q I turn your attention to paragraph
19 13. "I have reservations on American
20 Airlines to fly to South America March 15,
21 1998, returning on American Airlines March
22 18, 1998."
39
1 A I do. That is correct.
2 Q You currently hold those
3 reservations?
4 A And I've held them since March 6,
5 which I would be glad to supply document
6 saying that.
7 Q And when did you make those
8 reservations?
9 A March 6. I made the original -- go
10 ahead.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what
12 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
13 Exhibit 7.
14 (Carville Deposition Exhibit
15 No. 7 was marked for
16 identification.)
17 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I think
18 if I can explain to you what happened.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Let me just ask the questions and
21 you'll have an opportunity to explain. I
22 show you what has been marked as Exhibit 7.
40
1 This is a copy of a document which was faxed
2 to Larry Klayman by William Alden McDaniel
3 junior of the firm of McDaniel & Marsh. He's
4 presumably the partner of Ms. Marsh. On
5 March 12, 1998. It attaches a reply of James
6 Carville of the same date, March 12, with a
7 certificate of service March 12, 1998, signed
8 by William Alden McDaniel.
9 Now let's turn to Exhibit 1 to this
10 correspondence and reply faxed to Larry
11 Klayman of Judicial Watch and filed with the
12 court on March 12, 1998. Do you see Exhibit
13 1?
14 A I do.
15 Q It's an American Airlines
16 itinerary?
17 A I do.
18 Q Do you see where it says the
19 flight, March 16, 1998?
20 A I do.
21 Q It doesn't say March 15, does it?
22 A It does not. I can supply you with
41
1 one that is dated the day after that that
2 says March 15, and I'll be glad to explain to
3 you what happened.
4 Q Let me ask the questions. You'll
5 have plenty of explaining to do. I can
6 assure you of that. Now, this document on
7 March 12, 1998, was in fact sent, Exhibit 7,
8 after this declaration under penalty of
9 perjury of James Carville was signed on March
10 10, correct?
11 A Right.
12 Q Two days later, right?
13 A Okay. If you let me explain, I can
14 explain.
15 Q Let me finish.
16 MS. MARSH: He doesn't want you to
17 explain.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q And the declaration under penalty
20 of perjury James Carville, which was Exhibit
21 6 was filed with the court, correct?
22 A Correct.
42
1 Q So the affidavit which you swore to
2 under penalty of perjury does not square with
3 what was then faxed to Mr. Klayman and filed
4 with the court on March 12, 1998, correct?
5 A Mr. Klayman, if you let me --
6 Q Yes our no?
7 A I'm not going to answer it because
8 I want to explain it. The document that was
9 faxed to you, the American Airlines thing was
10 not in the office. That document -- we
11 changed the reservation on March 6. I would
12 be glad to supply you with a document from
13 American Airlines dated March 6, and I can
14 back up and I can provide you witnesses to
15 what happened.
16 I have a speech in New York at 7:15
17 on the morning of Thursday -- is it the 19th?
18 Thursday the 19th at 7:15. My nephew looked
19 at my schedule, had me leaving on Monday to
20 come back on Thursday morning to New York.
21 Contractually, I was unable to do that when
22 this whole thing -- this whole brouhaha
43
1 started I said wait a minute, I got to leave
2 Sunday night.
3 I even went so far as to call
4 Mr. Harry Rhodes at the Washington Speakers
5 Bureau to see if it was possible that I could
6 get someone to sub for my speech, maybe
7 Mr. Stephanopolous, who I called and he said
8 he couldn't because he was going to be out of
9 town and I even asked Mr. Rhodes if it was
10 possible that I could get in -- the flight
11 gets in I think at 5:43 from Latin America;
12 it gets in very early in the morning and it
13 was scheduled for 7:15. Contractually we
14 were unable to do that.
15 So when I saw that you got me where
16 I can't back. I got to leave Sunday, Monday,
17 come back following night, Tuesday. That's
18 what happened. We had it in there. We were
19 not in the office and Kevin Murphy when he
20 asked to fax it to Bill, he faxed the
21 itinerary of March 5, not March 6.
22 Q Yes or no, you never submitted to
44
1 the court throughout this whole process of
2 the last few weeks a copy of your airline
3 ticket or itinerary for March 15, have you?
4 Yes or no?
5 A The best thing for me to do,
6 Mr. Klayman. I'll submit it in 15 minutes.
7 Q Did you ever submit that to the
8 court?
9 A This was an error that
10 Mr. Murphy -- he picked up not the most
11 recent itinerary. Okay?
12 Q Did you ever submit that to the
13 court? Yes or no?
14 A I didn't see this. Okay? He just
15 attached it to it. Look, what I'm saying to
16 you is not yes or no. I'm saying to you that
17 there's a document of which we can have here
18 and supply to you that shows March 6, and
19 I've given you the names of people that I
20 talked to prior to March 12 to try to make
21 arrangements where I could be here on Monday
22 consistent with my contractual obligation.
45
1 Now that's all I can tell you.
2 Q I just asked a simple question.
3 Did you submit the March 15 ticket as you
4 claim exists to the court at any time, yes or
5 no?
6 A The ticket?
7 Q Ticket or itinerary?
8 A I didn't -- Mr. Murphy, when I was
9 in Florida faxed this March 5 itinerary which
10 was not the most recent itinerary. Would you
11 like --
12 Q As far as you know, this March 15
13 ticket or itinerary was never submitted to
14 the court, correct?
15 A That's right. It was an error on
16 Mr. Murphy's part. Would you like the March
17 6 itinerary?
18 Q The issue's already been decided.
19 If you want to submit it to the court now,
20 fine, Mr. Carville, do what you want.
21 MS. MARSH: He doesn't need your
22 instruction, Mr. Klayman. Let's go on with
46
1 the deposition.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: In fact, I ask that
3 you do submit it to the court.
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Be glad
5 to.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Now, I'm referring also to the
8 objection of James Carville. What exhibit is
9 that because you have the originals?
10 MS. MARSH: Exhibit No. 3.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Exhibit No. 3. Have you ever seen
13 this before, this document?
14 A I have.
15 Q When did you see it? Today?
16 A No. I saw it prior to today,
17 Thursday or Friday of last week.
18 Q And you helped your counsel put
19 this thing together on Thursday, Friday of
20 last week, correct?
21 A No, some of it they did --
22 MS. MARSH: I don't want you to get
47
1 into attorney-client privilege stuff.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not privilege.
3 MS. MARSH: It is if he starts
4 describing what he did.
5 MR. GAFFNEY: I'd also like to
6 object. I don't have a copy of this exhibit.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not my fault I
8 just saw it for the first time today.
9 MR. GAFFNEY: You're using it as a
10 deposition exhibit in your own deposition.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: At a break we'll make
12 a copy.
13 MR. GAFFNEY: No, I want it now.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Then you can have it,
15 Mr. Gaffney. We'll get you a copy.
16 THE WITNESS: Go ahead.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Can I continue to ask
18 questions in the meantime?
19 MR. GAFFNEY: Absolutely. I
20 encourage you to do so.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q So it was last Thursday and Friday
48
1 that you saw this and had an input into it?
2 A Could have seen it before that but
3 I think -- I know that I had it on Thursday
4 or Friday when I got to Florida.
5 Q And who is it that searched for the
6 documents in response to the subpoena?
7 A Me.
8 Q Did you use any of the office staff
9 that we went over to help you search?
10 A Basically, I did it myself. I had
11 Kevin look through the computer because
12 there's a better chance I can turn on a 747
13 than I can turn on the computer.
14 Q Where do you keep documents in your
15 office?
16 A In the file cabinet.
17 Q Where's the file cabinet located?
18 A Against the north wall.
19 Q Describe for me the internal
20 arrangements of your office. How is it
21 configured?
22 A You want me to draw it for you?
49
1 Q Yes, I do.
2 MS. MARSH: Let him give you a
3 piece of paper. Don't draw on the exhibits.
4 THE WITNESS: I'm not much of an
5 artist here.
6 MS. MARSH: What is it you want him
7 to draw? Just a layout of the office?
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, and where the
9 file cabinets are. Where the file cabinets
10 are, why don't you write "filegate"? That
11 will delineate that.
12 MS. MARSH: I don't want him to
13 write "filegate." It has nothing to do with
14 his file cabinets.
15 THE WITNESS: I'm going to try to
16 sit here and give you serious, honest
17 answers, so please make serious and honest
18 observations.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Good, I'm happy about
20 that.
21 THE WITNESS: You come in the door
22 here, my sofa is right there, telephone right
50
1 here. This is the office where Todd and
2 Kevin and Matt work. This is like a little
3 kitchen and the file cabinet is right there.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q Can you just put an "F" where the
6 file cabinet is? What kind of files do you
7 have? Are they lateral files?
8 A I don't understand that.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Mark that as Exhibit
10 8, please.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't know what --
12 I mean, I know what a lateral file is. What
13 is a lateral file?
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Files that have drawers that are
16 horizontal that pull out.
17 A As best I can recall, there are six
18 drawers that the two, two, and two.
19 Q And what do you store in there?
20 A I don't store nothing. Todd puts
21 it all in, you know, but I went and looked --
22 I went through it with him when we were in