451
1 Q Was this sent to you by Jane
2 Sherburne?
3 A I have no idea.
4 Q Turn to the document 0145 through
5 and including 0167.
6 A 016.
7 Q 0145 through 0167.
8 A Okay, I got it.
9 Q What document is this?
10 A What do you mean, what document is
11 it? It is what it is, Mr. Klayman. I'll let
12 you identify it.
13 Q 0145 to 0167, do you see those
14 documents? "Fact Sheet on FBI Files Obtained
15 by the White House"?
16 A Right.
17 Q Have you ever seen this set of
18 documents before?
19 A I don't recall it as I sit here
20 today. But if it came from my files, I
21 probably saw it. Not everything in my files
22 I saw.
452
1 Q Was this sent to you by Jane
2 Sherburne? It says "Harold Ickes from Jane"
3 on 0145?
4 A I have no idea who sent it to me.
5 Q Why was there a fact sheet on FBI
6 files?
7 A Why?
8 Q Why.
9 A Beats me. Facts are good to know.
10 Q These are talking points, aren't
11 they, so the White House knows how to respond
12 to inquiries about the FBI files matter?
13 A I think it is what it says it is.
14 It's a fact sheet. If somebody wanted to use
15 it for talking points, presumably someone
16 could.
17 Q That's a common procedure in the
18 White House, is it not, to come up with fact
19 sheets or talking points so you know how to
20 respond to inquiries?
21 A It's useful when you're talking to
22 people to know what you're talking about.
453
1 Q So it's quite common that fact
2 sheets or talking points are prepared.
3 A I think it depends very much on the
4 situation, Mr. Klayman. Sometimes it is.
5 Sometimes it isn't.
6 Q In the context of your duties and
7 responsibilities at the time, you are aware
8 that people requested or you're requested a
9 fact sheet so people would know how to
10 respond on these questions, correct?
11 A As I said, Mr. Klayman, I always
12 took the position that it was useful to know
13 what the facts were when you're responding to
14 inquiries, especially press inquiries.
15 Q I'm talking about this particular
16 instance. Someone ordered a fact sheet.
17 Correct?
18 A I don't know if anybody ordered a
19 fact sheet or not. But I don't think -- it
20 is what it is. It speaks for itself. As I
21 say, sometimes we had fact sheets in the
22 White House on certain kinds of issues, and
454
1 sometimes we didn't, depending on what the
2 issue was, how controversial it was, et
3 cetera.
4 Q You had them on this issue, though.
5 Correct?
6 A We had what?
7 Q Fact sheets.
8 A You're basing that on what?
9 Q On this document.
10 A The document speaks for itself.
11 Q Who prepared it?
12 A I don't know.
13 Q You ordered that it be prepared,
14 did you not?
15 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
16 THE WITNESS: I doubt it.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You know who did order that it be
19 prepared. Correct?
20 MS. SABRIN: Asked and answered.
21 A I don't know.
22 Q You said that you met with Leon
455
1 Panetta and you recommended that the FBI take
2 over the investigation, correct, you and Jack
3 Quinn and Jane Sherburne?
4 A If I recall my testimony, I think
5 our recommendation was that the White House
6 not conduct its own investigation.
7 Q If that was the case, then why was
8 a fact sheet prepared?
9 A There are certain facts,
10 Mr. Klayman -- it is the White House, after
11 all. Most of the national press camps out at
12 the White House, and they're constantly
13 asking the White House questions. This was
14 obviously an area in which the White House
15 was being peppered with questions. Typically
16 it is useful for those who are responding to
17 the press, and there are often more than one,
18 Mr. McCurry's operation being one,
19 Ms. Sherburne and Mr. Fabiani being another,
20 the White House counsel was sometimes
21 speaking, people were on talk shows, so that
22 people could have a common set, a common
456
1 understanding of what we understood the facts
2 to be at that time. I don't think you find
3 that sort of a shocking novel approach to
4 life.
5 Q Yeah, and based on your knowledge
6 of the White House, how it's worked under the
7 Clinton Administration, fact sheets are
8 frequently prepared not just for internal
9 White House use, but to give to people that
10 are appearing on talk shows on behalf of the
11 administration.
12 A They are typically given to people
13 who are from the White House who are
14 appearing on television shows, yes. People
15 from the White House.
16 Q Does the White House keep a list of
17 people that appear on television shows that
18 can be recommended to talk show hosts?
19 A I would assume so. They'd be dopes
20 not to. But I don't know that as a fact.
21 Q DNC does the same thing?
22 A I would hope they do. I hope they
457
1 do something over there.
2 Q Did you ever play a role in
3 collecting, maintaining and recommending
4 people to go on talk shows?
5 A No.
6 Q Have you ever gone on talk shows
7 and discussed Filegate?
8 A Not that I recall. I think that I
9 have mercifully missed that great pleasure.
10 Q You were on a talk show a couple
11 months ago, weren't you?
12 A Yeah, every now and then I pop up.
13 You know, when they have nobody else to put
14 on they dredge me up. You know what I mean?
15 Slow day. They first check if I'm going to
16 drool. If they think I'm not going to drool,
17 they say, "Okay, you can get on."
18 Q Now, who is it that gathered the
19 information for this fact sheet, 0145
20 through 0167?
21 A I don't know.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
458
1 A Typically, it would be the
2 counsel's office and typically within the
3 counsel's office it would have been
4 Ms. Sherburne's, people working for
5 Ms. Sherburne. But I can't verify that or I
6 can't say that that's in fact what occurred
7 in this situation.
8 Q During the time you were at the
9 White House, I take it there were discussions
10 that it was best to let the lawyers do the
11 fact gathering because if ever any questions
12 were asked you could claim attorney-client
13 privilege.
14 A I'm sure that there were
15 discussions like that. I don't recall any
16 particular discussions along those lines.
17 Q You mean you don't recall the
18 particular discussions with regard to
19 Filegate.
20 A Along those -- well, I don't --
21 MS. SABRIN: That's not the
22 question you asked.
459
1 A I was speaking generally because I
2 thought you were asking a general question.
3 It probably wouldn't be a bad idea, though.
4 Q So the reason that facts were
5 gathered by counsel was so that they would
6 never have to be disclosed under
7 attorney-client privilege?
8 MS. SABRIN: Objection to form,
9 foundation.
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection.
11 THE WITNESS: Mr. Klayman, I think
12 if you compare this administration to any
13 prior administration, there's been no
14 administration that has been more
15 forthcoming, has provided more information to
16 the public, to the prosecutors, to the
17 Congress, to every other houha who wants it
18 on all conceivable matters than this
19 administration. You can take that as you
20 will.
21 MS. SABRIN: How much more time do
22 we have?
460
1 MR. KLAYMAN: 16 minutes is our
2 calculation.
3 THE WITNESS: Could I take a very
4 short break?
5 MR. KLAYMAN: As long as it doesn't
6 count against our 16 minutes.
7 THE WITNESS: We don't want to do
8 that.
9 MS. SABRIN: I'm not sure that's an
10 accurate time estimate. When you said it
11 was 50 minutes, it was about 10 after 5:00.
12 THE WITNESS: We don't want to
13 deprive you of a minute here.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: That's in your favor.
15 MS. SABRIN: Five minutes left.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: You confirm that,
17 Ms. Shapiro?
18 MS. SHAPIRO: I have 5:55:38
19 elapsed.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: You have what?
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Five hours 55 minutes
22 and 38 seconds elapsed.
461
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you going to make
2 an issue over 10 minutes?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: You'll have to ask
4 the witness and counsel.
5 MS. SABRIN: I'll go talk to my
6 client.
7 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
8 video record at 5:41.
9 (Recess)
10 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
11 record at 5:46.
12 MS. SABRIN: Mr. Klayman, with
13 respect to the time, Harold has been very
14 generous with his time. He's come here
15 voluntarily and every minute we're here costs
16 him money. So we're going to insist that you
17 wrap this up in six minutes.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let the record
19 reflect I am sorry that you want to play
20 petty games like that, Ms. Sabrin. To the
21 contrary --
22 MS. SABRIN: By the way, my name is
462
1 Ms. Sabrin.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Sabrin, I'm sorry. I
3 mean that's absurd and that is not the
4 calculation of time. But in any event, it's
5 quite clear that what's occurred here today
6 was a type of evasiveness in terms of asking
7 questions, a type of technique to run the
8 clock out. I think it's at least fortunate
9 that in terms of some parts of this
10 deposition we were able to have a cordial
11 conversation with the client. But it's clear
12 that he was never answering my questions. In
13 fact, we got very little testimony here
14 today.
15 MS. SABRIN: I object to that
16 characterization of his testimony.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: We will be moving --
18 MS. SABRIN: I object to you
19 interrupting me.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I was talking.
21 MS. SABRIN: No, I was talking.
22 You had finished. He has been very generous
463
1 with his time, he's been very responsive.
2 You spent maybe out of our six hours together
3 here today, 30 minutes asking questions
4 relevant to the actual allegations in this
5 lawsuit. You have only yourself to blame for
6 that. Why don't we proceed and not waste any
7 more time.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you know,
9 Ms. Sabrin, that characterization is patently
10 false. Would you like to retract it? You're
11 saying 30 minutes is what I spent on
12 Filegate?
13 MS. SABRIN: I said approximately.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: I think that's a
15 demonstration of the lack of good faith here.
16 MS. SABRIN: Look, if you want to
17 use your final minutes having this debate,
18 you may. But I'm willing to proceed now.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: We will be moving to
20 have Mr. Ickes come back yet again, and
21 because we have not finished our testimony.
22 MS. SABRIN: We will be opposing
464
1 that motion.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q After you discussed with
4 Mr. Panetta having this thing turned over to
5 the FBI for investigation, were there any
6 other discussions while you were at the White
7 House about Filegate?
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection,
9 mischaracterizes his prior testimony.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q You can respond.
12 A Do you want to ask the question
13 again?
14 Q You said that you had a discussion
15 with Sherburne and Jack Quinn, with Panetta
16 about turning the matter over to the FBI.
17 Correct?
18 A I say that I think there was that
19 discussion. I think all three of us were
20 there.
21 Q When did that discussion take
22 place?
465
1 A Asked and answered.
2 Q During that discussion you
3 discussed what you knew at the time about the
4 Filegate controversy. Correct?
5 A I don't know if there was a
6 discussion about what we knew. I think there
7 was a discussion about a recommendation that
8 was made to Mr. Panetta. As I say, it was my
9 recollection that Mr. Panetta did not
10 disagree with the recommendation.
11 Q Was anyone else present at that
12 meeting besides the people I've just
13 mentioned?
14 MS. SABRIN: Asked and answered.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q You can respond. Are you
17 responding?
18 MS. SABRIN: You can respond.
19 A She said it was asked and answered.
20 MS. SABRIN: If you want to waste
21 your time asking the same question --
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
466
1 Q Was there anyone else present,
2 aides, assistants, anybody like that?
3 A I don't recall. I suspect not. I
4 think these kinds of meetings were closely
5 held.
6 Q Where did that meeting take place?
7 A If it was with Mr. Panetta, I can't
8 guarantee this, high probability, it was in
9 his office.
10 Q Now, after that meeting was there
11 anything put in writing about the decision
12 that was made to have this matter taken over
13 by the FBI?
14 MS. SABRIN: Objection,
15 mischaracterizes his prior testimony about
16 turning it over to the FBI.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You can respond.
19 A As I testified earlier, the
20 recommendation to Mr. Panetta, this is the
21 third time I've said this, was that the White
22 House not conduct its own investigation.
467
1 That was the recommendation.
2 Q Were there discussions after that
3 meeting with anybody at the White House that
4 you participated in about Filegate?
5 A I think few that I participated in.
6 There may have been some. I can't recall
7 with any precision when, where they were, who
8 participated in them, or what was said. If
9 you have some notes or some documents
10 there --
11 Q You testified earlier that you knew
12 Terry Lenzner.
13 A What?
14 Q That you knew Terry Lenzner. Yes?
15 A Yes, what?
16 Q You know him?
17 A Asked and answered.
18 Q Are you aware that he's been hired
19 by Mr. Bennett and Mr. Kendall to work on
20 behalf of President Clinton?
21 MS. SABRIN: Asked and answered.
22 A Asked and answered.
468
1 Q Are you aware of any investigation
2 he's conducted, he's conducting into
3 individuals or entities?
4 A I think my impression is,
5 Mr. Klayman, that's how he makes his living.
6 So I suspect that if he ain't investigating
7 individuals and entities, he's going to run
8 out of cash, and he's going to have to lay
9 all those folks off. So I suspect that he
10 probably is. Now, who they are, I don't have
11 the foggiest idea. Who he's working for, I
12 don't know. But I bet you one thing, old
13 Terry's out there investigating.
14 Q He's investigating on behalf of the
15 Clintons.
16 A Oh, I don't know that. That I did
17 not say. I have no idea what he's doing on
18 behalf of the Clintons. You'll have to ask
19 his lawyers, the President's lawyers.
20 Q Are you aware that, have you talked
21 to Mr. Lenzner about what he's doing on
22 behalf of the President?
469
1 A I have not.
2 Q Do you know of anyone who has?
3 A Do I know of anyone who has talked
4 to Mr. Lenzner about what Mr. Lenzner is
5 doing on behalf of the President? Not
6 offhand. I suppose that -- I expect that if
7 he has been retained by Skadden Arps or
8 Williams & Connolly that they may have talked
9 to him. But I don't know that as a fact.
10 You must be getting about as tired as I am,
11 Mr. Klayman. The quality of your questions
12 are going down hill here. You know what I
13 mean?
14 Q Have you ever done litigation,
15 Mr. Ickes?
16 A How do you define litigation,
17 Mr. Klayman.
18 Q Been involved in civil cases as
19 counsel?
20 A Well, you know, some of you
21 high-powered lawyers are pretty persnickety
22 about how that term is used.
470
1 Q You did a lot of arbitration, I
2 take it.
3 A I do a lot of arbitrations, but you
4 know, high-powered guys like you wouldn't
5 consider that, you'd consider that beneath
6 you in terms of the term "litigation," so.
7 MS. SABRIN: Mr. Klayman, your time
8 is up.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Have you ever met Bernard Schwartz?
11 MS. SABRIN: Mr. Klayman, your time
12 is up.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Have you ever met Bernard Schwartz?
15 MS. SABRIN: I'm sorry.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you walking out
17 of the room?
18 MS. SABRIN: We're not walking out
19 of the room. We informed you that you had
20 six more minutes under the court order and
21 your time is up pursuant to the court's
22 order.
471
1 MR. KLAYMAN: It's our position
2 that the time is not up at least in terms of
3 even the six hours. To walk out now in our
4 view would be contempt of court.
5 MS. SABRIN: To continue it would
6 be contempt of court.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: My stopwatch says six
8 hours and two minutes and 13 seconds.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you're wrong
10 Ms. Shapiro, and we told you that you're
11 wrong. Well, we'll be moving for appropriate
12 relief. We'll leave the deposition open.
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Note our objection to
14 that.
15 MS. SABRIN: Our objection as well.
16 MR. CARY: Our objection.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Let the record
18 reflect that I was not even allowed to ask
19 this question.
20 THE WITNESS: Oh, my goodness
21 gracious. You poor boy, you. Lordy, Lordy.
22 You didn't get to ask one more question.
472
1 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't say it was
2 my last.
3 THE WITNESS: Mercy, mercy.
4 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
5 video record at 5:54.
6 THE WITNESS: Good, Hallelujah.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Film him on the way
8 out.
9 (Whereupon, at 5:54 p.m., the
10 deposition of HAROLD ICKES was
11 adjourned.)
12 * * * * *