201
1 White House leaks, is already on Wolf
2 Blitzer.
3 Q Now, you have had, as you
4 testified, contact with Rahm Emanuel.
5 A In fact, when Wolf calls me to find
6 out what's going on, I say, "Well, let me
7 turn you on."
8 Q So you think Wolf's got better
9 communication than you do at the White House.
10 A Well, I'm sure he is over there a
11 lot more.
12 Q Are you jealous that Wolf has
13 better communication?
14 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to
15 relevancy.
16 THE WITNESS: Am I what?
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Jealous that he apparently has a
19 better hotline than you do?
20 A Not at all. I enjoy, you know, I
21 don't have to listen to it all. I just pick
22 up what I need to pick up.
202
1 Q He's a nice guy, isn't he?
2 MS. SABRIN: Objection, relevancy.
3 THE WITNESS: What relevance does
4 this have to anything?
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Well, I'm trying to figure out why
7 you feel that Wolf Blitzer has a better line
8 of communication than you.
9 A I didn't say that he did. I don't
10 talk to the White House --
11 Q Now, Rahm Emanuel has provided
12 information to you from time to time, has he
13 not?
14 A I have talked to him very
15 infrequently.
16 Q But you have talked to him since
17 January of '98.
18 MS. SABRIN: Asked and answered.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Correct?
21 A Yeah. Just so that we can move
22 this along, since I've answered it already
203
1 I'll answer it again, I have talked to him
2 very infrequently.
3 Q About how many times?
4 A Very infrequently; probably not
5 over three or four times.
6 Q What did you talk to him about?
7 A I talked to him about his kid, saw
8 him on the street one day, saw him at dinner
9 one night with Stan --
10 Q Stan Greenberg?
11 A Stan Greenberg, yeah. I typically
12 don't talk to Rahm much. I may call him if I
13 can't get anybody else to find out what
14 position the White House is taking on
15 breaking news because reporters may be
16 calling me and I want to find out what
17 position the White House is taking, what
18 they're saying.
19 Q You've talked to him about Linda
20 Tripp?
21 A Again, I've talked to so many
22 people, Mr. Klayman, it's impossible for me
204
1 to recall either specifically or generally
2 whether I've talked to Mr. Emanuel about
3 Linda Tripp. I just don't recall.
4 Q You've talked to him about Monica
5 Lewinsky?
6 A I'm sure that we've talked on
7 occasion. The nature of what we've talked
8 about I could not recall.
9 Q You've talked to him about Kenneth
10 Starr.
11 A I probably talked to him about
12 Kenneth Starr on occasion.
13 Q What did you talk to him about
14 Kenneth Starr?
15 A I have no idea, Mr. --
16 Q You've talked to the President and
17 the First Lady in the last several months
18 since January about Kenneth Starr, haven't
19 you?
20 A I have probably, that subject has
21 probably come up. Again, I don't recall the
22 specific nature of the conversation, but I
205
1 would be surprised if the subject of
2 Mr. Starr had not come up.
3 Q What did you discuss with him about
4 Mr. Starr?
5 A As I said, I can't remember
6 generally or specifically. But I'm sure
7 that, I'm confident that we have talked about
8 him.
9 Q Let me go through it. We're
10 talking about the President and First Lady,
11 Rahm Emanuel, I'm going to add to the list
12 Paul Begala, Mike McCurry, Ann Lewis, Lanny
13 Brewer. Have you discussed with any of these
14 people, and I'm going to add Sidney
15 Blumenthal. Have you had discussions with
16 Sidney Blumenthal in the last months since
17 January of 1998?
18 A Not that I recall.
19 Q You may have but you don't
20 remember?
21 A I don't -- I've known Sidney for a
22 long time. I don't recall having talked to
206
1 him in the last -- but I don't want to say as
2 a matter of absolute fact that I haven't.
3 Q With regard to any of the people
4 I've just mentioned, the President, the First
5 Lady, Rahm Emanuel, Paul Begala, Mike
6 McCurry, Ann Lewis, Lanny Brewer, have you
7 discussed Richard Mellon Scaife?
8 A Oh, I'm sure that his name has come
9 up in those conversations. Again, with whom,
10 when and the details of the conversations, I
11 don't have any precise recollection.
12 Q What did you discuss just
13 generally?
14 MS. SABRIN: With any of those
15 eight or ten people you listed?
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q With any of those people.
18 A As I say, I don't know who I
19 discussed it with, with whom I discussed
20 Richard Mellon Scaife, but I am confident
21 that his name has come up in some of my
22 conversations.
207
1 Q What did you discuss about him?
2 A I don't have any precise
3 recollection of the details of the
4 conversation.
5 Q Do you have any recollection of the
6 details of the conversation?
7 A I have recollection that I've
8 already testified to, that I'm confident that
9 I probably did discuss Richard Mellon Scaife.
10 Q Did you discuss the Arkansas
11 project?
12 A Probably. I mean he's been
13 allegedly quite involved in the Arkansas
14 project.
15 Q What did you discuss about that?
16 A I don't know the details. I don't
17 recall the details.
18 Q You discussed positive aspects of
19 Richard Mellon Scaife?
20 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
21 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you
22 mean --
208
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q That he's a philanthropist that's
3 doing a lot of good for this country?
4 A Is that how you define good?
5 Q I'm asking you. Is that --
6 A No, no, I'm asking you for --
7 Q I'm trying to refresh your
8 recollection.
9 A Well, of course --
10 MS. SABRIN: You're asking the
11 question, so it's not proper to ask him to
12 define your terms.
13 A I'm sort of confused now. Could
14 you just rephrase your question, reask it.
15 Q Were the conversations intended to
16 obtain information that could be used to
17 discuss Richard Mellon Scaife in public?
18 A I don't know if they -- I don't
19 recall the conversations, that the nature of
20 the conversations or the purpose of the
21 conversations was to obtain information.
22 There is certain information that is in the
209
1 public domain. I know a lot of that. My
2 interlocutors knew a lot of that. So I don't
3 think that -- I don't recall calling or
4 talking to any of the people that you've
5 mentioned to ask them for information.
6 Q Did they give you any information
7 about Richard Mellon Scaife?
8 A That I don't already know?
9 Q At the time that you talked with
10 them.
11 A That I didn't already know?
12 Q No, I just asked the question the
13 way I asked it.
14 A Well, you know, you have, you know
15 what conversations are like, you have them
16 back and forth and there's an article about
17 Mr. Scaife and you have a discussion about
18 that. They say certain things, I say certain
19 things. So if by their saying things about
20 Mr. Scaife is by your definition for the
21 purpose of this question giving me
22 information, then the answer is yes.
210
1 Q Then what did they tell you about
2 Mr. Scaife?
3 A I don't have the fog -- I don't
4 have any recollection with any specificity
5 about what they said about Mr. Scaife or who
6 said it or when they said it.
7 Q Did you discuss David Hale with any
8 of these people?
9 A Probably. But again, it's, you
10 know, all these characters are sort of
11 floating around on the Washington stage and
12 from time to time the names come up and
13 they're the subject of a conversation.
14 Q Mr. Ickes, has anyone ever said to
15 you that given the fact that you can't
16 remember anything that maybe you're not very
17 useful to this administration right now? Has
18 that ever come up?
19 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form
20 and to tone and it's totally unnecessary and
21 your badgering him with irrelevant questions.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I'm just trying
211
1 to figure this out. I'm talking about
2 somebody that can't remember anything, how
3 are they helpful.
4 MS. SABRIN: If you'd like to ask a
5 proper question, he can respond.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q How are they helpful to the
8 administration if they can't remember
9 anything.
10 A You'll have to ask the
11 administration how helpful they think I am.
12 Along with your smirk.
13 Q Is that a criteria for helping this
14 administration?
15 A Is what a criteria?
16 Q Memory.
17 A Beats the hell out of me. You'll
18 have to ask the administration.
19 MS. SABRIN: Mr. Klayman, I don't
20 know how much longer we plan to go. It's
21 almost lunchtime.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm finishing this
212
1 line of testimony.
2 MS. SABRIN: You haven't asked any
3 questions about the FBI files yet.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Let me finish this
5 line of testimony.
6 A How long will it take?
7 Q This line, I think we can finish
8 probably within 15 minutes.
9 A I need a drink of water.
10 Q With any of the people -- okay,
11 back on the record. With any of the people
12 that I've just mentioned, have you discussed
13 Stuart Taylor?
14 A I don't recall. I may have.
15 Again, you know, you are asking me, just so
16 that we can be precise, given your last
17 comments and the implication that you seem to
18 draw from those comments, that you're asking
19 me when I talked to a specific person and
20 what I said to the specific person. The
21 answer is under oath and as an officer of the
22 court, I'll be glad to tell you if I can
213
1 remember. I can't remember. I talk to
2 dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of
3 people about this stuff. I read a lot. It
4 all becomes merged. That's not to say that I
5 don't remember things about Richard Mellon
6 Scaife, but that's not the set of questions
7 you've been asking me.
8 Q Did you discuss --
9 A Now, let me just answer the
10 question that you asked me. I may have
11 discussed that particular individual in
12 passing. I don't think a lot of time was
13 devoted to it.
14 Q But you just can't remember what it
15 was.
16 A I don't remember who I talked to
17 about it or what was said.
18 Q Matt Drudge, same question.
19 A Matt Drudge, I'm sure that I've
20 talked to people about Matt Drudge. Which
21 universe of people are you talking about now?
22 Q The ones I'm mentioning.
214
1 A Okay.
2 Q Rahm Emanuel, Paul Begala, Ann
3 Lewis, the ones that I mentioned earlier.
4 A I have talked to people about Matt
5 Drudge only in passing. I think it's sort
6 of, you know, he's not somebody I spend a lot
7 of time on.
8 Q Joe DiGenova.
9 A I may have. Again, all these
10 people are in the news, as you know, from
11 time to time. It depends on who you are
12 talking to, when and what period of time
13 they're in the news.
14 Q The people that -- again, we're on
15 the universe, just to remind you again
16 because --
17 A No, no.
18 Q You remember?
19 A No, no, I got it down.
20 Q The President, First Lady, Rahm
21 Emanuel --
22 A No, no, I got it. With all due
215
1 respect, my memory is a little longer than
2 yours, apparently. I remember the universe
3 of people. What I'm saying to you, just so
4 that we can be real precise about this and
5 there's no mischaracterization on your part
6 or attempt at mischaracterization, I'm not
7 saying I didn't talk about these subjects and
8 these individuals. What I'm saying is that I
9 don't remember when and with whom I had those
10 discussions other than what I've testified
11 to.
12 Q You don't remember specifically
13 what they were about.
14 A Well, what what was about?
15 Q The discussions up to this point in
16 time.
17 A Which discussions are you talking
18 about?
19 Q Right now I'm on Joe DiGenova.
20 What did you discuss about Joe DiGenova?
21 A I don't know. He appeared in the
22 Style section with his wife. I'm sure it may
216
1 well have been that I discussed him with a
2 reporter. I may have just discussed him with
3 one or more of the people in the universe
4 that you're focused on.
5 Q What reporter did you discuss him?
6 A Don't know when, don't know where,
7 don't know what was said.
8 Q Don't have a clue.
9 A Other than --
10 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to
11 mischaracterization of prior testimony.
12 THE WITNESS: I think I've answered
13 the question.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Did you discuss his wife, Victoria
16 Toensing?
17 A I may have. I mean they were both,
18 you know, the subject of a Style magazine
19 article and there was a lot of ���� about
20 them at one point.
21 Q Was that the Style magazine article
22 that dealt with whether or not they could
217
1 work for CNBC at the same time as have work
2 for Congress?
3 A I don't remember the purport of the
4 article. I do know that that subject matter
5 that you just raised has been discussed in
6 public.
7 Q Have you ever discussed that
8 subject matter with anyone?
9 A I may have. Don't recall if I
10 have. I haven't paid much attention to them,
11 to tell you the truth.
12 Q Who did you discuss it with?
13 A Don't know. Don't recall.
14 Q Now, both of those individuals are
15 working for a House committee investigating
16 the Teamsters Union. Correct?
17 MS. SABRIN: Objection, relevancy.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You can respond.
20 A I guess. Yes, I think -- that's my
21 understanding. They're working for them.
22 They're working for ABC and lining their
218
1 pockets and they're doing a lot of things, it
2 appears.
3 Q You have been questioned by this
4 House committee investigating the Teamsters
5 Union?
6 A I have not, to my knowledge.
7 Q Have you been contacted by that
8 House committee?
9 A I don't think so. Have I?
10 Q You've had no dealings in any way
11 with that House committee?
12 A Not to my knowledge.
13 Q During the time that you were with
14 the White House, you did from time to time
15 deal with matters concerning the Teamsters
16 Union. Correct?
17 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to
18 relevancy.
19 THE WITNESS: The answer is yes.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q In fact, you had some involvement
22 with regard to the public financing of the
219
1 last Teamsters election. Correct?
2 A Yeah, could I --
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Object to the
4 relevancy.
5 A You know, I thought we were going
6 to break after you finished your last line of
7 questioning. You seem to be going down --
8 Q I said 15 minutes. I'm going to
9 be --
10 A No, no, no. You said --
11 Q Break at 1:15.
12 A No, no, no.
13 MS. SABRIN: You said after you
14 finished that line of questioning.
15 THE WITNESS: With all due --
16 MS. SABRIN: I'd also like to point
17 out for the record that we've been here
18 three-plus hours and you haven't asked a
19 single question about the FBI file matter.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, your definition
21 of what's involved may be different than
22 mine, and the court's. But I'm not going to
220
1 get into that in front of the witness.
2 THE WITNESS: No, no. I asked you
3 specifically and you said, and we can go back
4 and read the record -- it's clear, it's
5 becoming very clear to me how short your
6 memory is, while you sit there criticizing
7 mine.
8 Putting that aside for the moment,
9 you said very clearly, and I think it's on
10 the record unless you told the reporter to go
11 off the record, when I asked you how long you
12 were going to be, you wanted to finish this
13 line of questioning. I then asked you how
14 long that was going to take, and you said no
15 more than 15 minutes.
16 It strikes me, and you can do
17 whatever you want, this is your deposition,
18 but it strikes me that you have finished your
19 line of questioning about the complex of
20 people and what I was saying to them and
21 you're now off into a whole new area.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: I have not.
221
1 MS. SABRIN: Well, we would request
2 taking a break at this point. If you're not
3 finished with your line of questioning, it is
4 now 1:00 o'clock --
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll stop here, but
6 let me finish with DiGenova and Toensing, let
7 me finish this area up.
8 MS. SABRIN: I'll give you five
9 minutes and if you haven't finished it you
10 can ask your questions about them after the
11 break.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Have you discussed DiGenova and
14 Toensing with the President and First Lady?
15 A I don't recall having discussions
16 with them.
17 Q Can't remember.
18 A I didn't say that. I said I don't
19 recall.
20 Q Have you been involved in any way
21 in this House investigation of the Teamsters?
22 Have you been sent a letter or have you been
222
1 contacted by phone by anybody?
2 MS. SABRIN: Asked and answered.
3 A Asked and answered.
4 Q Same answer?
5 A Well, when you say anybody, what do
6 you mean anybody?
7 Q Now, the reason --
8 A No, no. You asked me to answer a
9 question. You said by anybody. Would you
10 define your universe of anybody for the
11 purpose of that last question? I don't want
12 the record to be --
13 Q Anybody, anybody in this world.
14 Anybody on earth.
15 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to
16 relevance.
17 THE WITNESS: Would you do the
18 question again? Because I'm now confused.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Have you discussed DiGenova and
21 Toensing in the last --
22 A No, no. You were talking about the
223
1 Teamsters.
2 MS. SABRIN: That was not your
3 question.
4 A That was not your question.
5 Q Have you --
6 A You need some memory aids over
7 there.
8 Q Excuse me?
9 A You need some memory aids.
10 Q What do you suggest?
11 A Beats me. I don't know what ails
12 you.
13 Q Have you been contacted by anyone
14 with regard to the Teamsters Union in the
15 last six months?
16 A By anybody?
17 Q Yes.
18 MS. SABRIN: With regard to any
19 aspect of the Teamsters Union.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.
21 A Yes.
22 Q Who?
224
1 A My wife talks to me about it from
2 time to time.
3 Q Other than your wife?
4 A I think my daughter raised it once.
5 Q Why did they raise it?
6 A I don't know.
7 MS. SABRIN: I'm going to object to
8 any discussion of conversations with your
9 wife on the basis of spousal privilege. If
10 you want to pursue conversations as to his
11 daughter, you know, you and Ken Starr can go
12 right ahead.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Why did your daughter ask you about
15 the Teamsters Union?
16 A You'll have to ask her.
17 Q What did she ask you?
18 A I don't recall what she asked me.
19 It was on the news one night and she --
20 MS. SABRIN: If you are going to
21 pursue this line of questioning I'm going to
22 call the judge on this.
225
1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm finishing with
2 this.
3 MS. SABRIN: No, I mean as to his
4 daughter. I'm going to call the judge if you
5 ask one more question about his daughter.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: He raised it. I
7 didn't raise it.
8 MS. SABRIN: I'm going to let you
9 explore it briefly and I've told you that's
10 enough --
11 MR. KLAYMAN: You're the one who
12 said there's no daughter privilege. You
13 asked me if I wanted to proceed on that, and
14 I took you up on it. You're the one who
15 raised that.
16 MS. SABRIN: That's not exactly
17 true.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Oh, it is. The
19 record's clear. The record's clear.
20 MS. SABRIN: The record will speak
21 for itself and we're breaking in two minutes.
22 So ask your questions about the --
226
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Is the reason that you discussed
3 Joe DiGenova and Victoria Toensing with the
4 universe of people that I just mentioned to
5 gather information to smear them in the
6 media?
7 MS. SABRIN: Mischaracterizes prior
8 testimony.
9 A I don't recall saying who I
10 discussed them with in that universe of
11 people. As I said, I'm sure that their names
12 have come up in conversation.
13 When things are in the news, you
14 tend to talk about it.
15 Q The reason you talked about
16 DiGenova and Toensing was to gather
17 information so you could communicate about
18 them with the media.
19 A I don't recall discussing those two
20 individuals. I say they're not particularly
21 important in my scheme of things.
22 So I don't recall discussing,
227
1 having any specific discussions with members
2 of the press about them. I may have, but I
3 don't recall it.
4 Q What is your scheme of things?
5 MS. SABRIN: We're going to break
6 for lunch now.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I want an answer
8 to this question.
9 MS. SABRIN: No, no. I gave you
10 two minutes --
11 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I want an answer
12 I'm entitled without your consulting with
13 him. What is your scheme of things?
14 MS. SABRIN: I want the record to
15 reflect that it is 1:15. We've asked you
16 three times about breaking for lunch and you
17 refused to do it.
18 We are going to break for lunch
19 now. Why don't we set the time when we will
20 be back.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: The record will
22 reflect I'm still within 15 minutes. Are you
228
1 going to answer the question, Mr. Ickes, what
2 your scheme of things is?
3 MS. SABRIN: If you want to
4 rephrase it after we return from the lunch
5 break, you can reask it.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: I want it unfettered
7 without him having a chance to consult with
8 you on a simple question about scheme of
9 things.
10 MS. SABRIN: It has nothing to do
11 with that.
12 A Mr. Klayman, if you can remember
13 the question when we get back, then you can
14 reask it and I'll be right here to answer it.
15 Okay?
16 Q Are you leaving, Mr. Ickes?
17 MS. SABRIN: We're breaking for
18 lunch now, Mr. Klayman.
19 A I'm going to the men's room,
20 Mr. Klayman. Is that all right?
21 Q Are you coming back?
22 A Otherwise, I might just soil your
229
1 rug here. You wouldn't want that because
2 then you would be sending me the cleaning
3 bill.
4 Q Are you coming back?
5 A Is there a men's room in this
6 joint?
7 Q Are you coming back?
8 A I'm going to come back --
9 MS. SABRIN: We'll come back in an
10 hour.
11 THE WITNESS: After I eat and have
12 some tea, pal. Have you got all that on
13 camera?
14 MR. FITTON: Down to the right.
15 THE WITNESS: Down to the right.
16 Do I need a key or not?
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Let the record
18 reflect the witness is leaving without our
19 consent.
20 MS. SABRIN: Let the record reflect
21 that we asked three times to break for lunch
22 and we were not accorded that courtesy by
230
1 you.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Let the record
3 reflect that we're still within my 15-minute
4 estimate. We will resume in one hour.
5 (Whereupon, at 1:12 p.m., a
6 luncheon recess was taken.)
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
231
1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2 (2:13 p.m.)
3 Whereupon,
4 HAROLD ICKES
5 was recalled as a witness and, having been
6 previously duly sworn, was examined and
7 testified further as follows:
8 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
9 CONTINUED
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Mr. Ickes, do you remember watching
12 This Week with Sam Donaldson and Cokie
13 Roberts on February 8th of this year when
14 George Stephanopoulos made a remark about an
15 Ellen Roemech strategy?
16 A I think I watched -- I'm not a
17 great adherent of the Sunday shows. I think
18 I did watch that one.
19 Q Before this deposition today, did
20 you have an opportunity to talk about your
21 testimony with counsel? Did you prepare for
22 the deposition?
232
1 A Yes.
2 Q How long did you prepare?
3 MS. SABRIN: I'm going to object on
4 the grounds of attorney-client privilege as
5 to any questions about what we did to prepare
6 for this deposition.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you instructing
8 him not to answer?
9 MS. SABRIN: Yes, I am.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify.
11 Did you meet for several hours?
12 MS. SABRIN: You've asked that
13 question and I objected on the grounds of
14 attorney-client privilege.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify.
16 Did you discuss the Ellen Roemech
17 strategy with your counsel?
18 MS. SABRIN: Objection on the basis
19 of attorney-client privilege.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify.
21 I'm going to show you what I'll ask
22 the court reporter to mark as Exhibit 7.
233
1 VIDEOGRAPHER: It's 6.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Exhibit 6, excuse me.
3 (Ickes Deposition Exhibit No. 6
4 was marked for identification.)
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Turning to Page 2, I'm going to
7 read from the middle of the page, tell me if
8 this refreshes your recollection definitively
9 as to whether you heard George Stephanopoulos
10 on This Week on February 8th. "Sam
11 Donaldson."
12 MS. SABRIN: I object to the
13 suggestion that his memory needs refreshing.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q "We know what the White House
16 tactics are. I mean, they've been almost
17 open about it. Attack the press, and perhaps
18 with good reason attack the independent
19 counsel -- perhaps for some good reason --
20 and stonewall on the central issue, which is
21 the President of the United States. If he
22 has nothing to hide why is he hiding?
234
1 George Stephanopoulos. I agree
2 with that. There's a different long term
3 strategy which I think would be far more
4 explosive. White House allies are already
5 starting to whisper about what I'll call the
6 Ellen Roemech strategy."
7 Sam Donaldson. I remember her.
8 George Stephanopoulos. You remember her?
9 Sam Donaldson. Oh, yes. George
10 Stephanopoulos. She was a girlfriend of John
11 F. Kennedy who also happened to be an East
12 German spy. Robert Kennedy was charged with
13 getting her out of the country and also
14 getting John Edgar Hoover to go to the
15 Congress and say, don't you investigate this
16 because if you do we're going to open up
17 everybody's closets. I think in the long run
18 they have a deterrent strategy of getting a
19 lot of --
20 George Will. Monica Lewinsky is an
21 East German spy?
22 Sam Donaldson. No, but that's a
235
1 good point. Are you suggesting for a moment
2 that what they're beginning to say is that if
3 you investigate this too much we'll put all
4 of your dirty linen right on the table, every
5 member of the Senate, every member of the
6 press corps?
7 George Stephanopoulos. Absolutely.
8 The President said he would never resign. I
9 think some around him are willing to take
10 everybody down with him."
11 Do you remember Mr. Stephanopoulos
12 discussing that in or around February 8th?
13 A Well, I think that I -- I think I
14 probably saw this. I watch those shows
15 sporadically. There was a lot of press
16 around it. So if I didn't watch it on the
17 show, I certainly read about it.
18 Q When you heard those comments did
19 they strike you in any particular way?
20 Surprise you?
21 A Assuming that I heard them or read
22 them, one or the other, they -- I don't know
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1 where George was getting his information.
2 Q In the last six months have you had
3 any conversations with George Stephanopoulos?
4 A I have.
5 Q On about how many occasions?
6 A At the most, three, four, five, in
7 that neighborhood.
8 Q Did you have any of these
9 conversations in person?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Where did the conversations take
12 place?
13 A I think we had lunch one day in New
14 York and we had lunch one day down in
15 Washington.
16 Q Approximately when did you have
17 lunch in New York?
18 A I don't know. I'd have to go --
19 Q Roughly speaking.
20 A It was, for some reason I think it
21 was before the end of '97 and I think it was
22 in November/December. Then we had either
237
1 lunch or a drink here in Washington, D.C.
2 Q When was that?
3 A More recently, within the last
4 several months.
5 Q What did you discuss during your
6 lunch in New York City at the end of '97?
7 A How he loved New York City.
8 Q Did you discuss your departure from
9 the White House at that time?
10 A I don't think so. It was an old
11 and stale story.
12 Q Did you discuss Filegate in any
13 way?
14 A Not that I recall. Again, I don't
15 have a definite recollection, but I am quite
16 sure that we did not.
17 Q Did you discuss gathering
18 information about critics of the Clinton
19 Administration?
20 A No. As I say, I think that -- the
21 focus of our conversation to, the best of my
22 memory, was what was he doing, how did he
238
1 like New York, what was it like being out of
2 the White House, et cetera.
3 Q Was anything else discussed during
4 the lunch?
5 A It could have been. I don't
6 recall.
7 Q The second meeting that you had,
8 just a few weeks ago or several months ago?
9 You had a drink?
10 A I testified to that. I've already
11 answered that.
12 Q Where did you have a drink?
13 A I don't recall.
14 Q What did you discuss during that
15 meeting?
16 A I don't recall that either. But
17 whatever was going on at the time we
18 undoubtedly discussed from, you know,
19 whatever legislation was being moved and how
20 George was doing in New York, how we were
21 doing in our business. Everything else --
22 Q Surely you discussed the Clinton
239
1 Administration during that meeting.
2 A I've already said that.
3 Q Surely you discussed some of the
4 Clinton scandals.
5 A We probably discussed some of them.
6 What they were, I don't recall.
7 Q That meeting over a drink, that
8 occurred after the Monica Lewinsky matter
9 broke, did it not?
10 A I'm pretty sure it did, yes.
11 Q It occurred after George made his
12 statement on This Week about the Ellen
13 Roemech strategy?
14 A When did he make this?
15 Q February 8th.
16 A I think it probably did. I don't
17 know as a fact. I think it probably did.
18 Q During that cocktail meeting you
19 did discuss the statements on This Week,
20 didn't you.
21 A I don't think I discussed this with
22 George.
240
1 Q Did you discuss Judicial Watch's
2 lawsuit in this matter?
3 A Not that I recall.
4 Q Have you ever discussed that with
5 Mr. Stephanopoulos?
6 A The lawsuit in this case?
7 Q Yes.
8 A No. It's pretty inconsequential.
9 Q Besides your counsel, have you ever
10 discussed this lawsuit with anyone?
11 A I'm sure I have. When, where,
12 under what circumstances, it's not something
13 that I've spent a lot of time either thinking
14 or talking about.
15 Q Who have you discussed this lawsuit
16 with?
17 A My wife.
18 Q Anyone else?
19 A I'm sure there are -- my partner,
20 Janice Enright.
21 Q What did you discuss with
22 Ms. Enright?
241
1 A When or what?
2 Q What.
3 A Just generally, the lawsuit, got to
4 go, you know, subpoenas served, got to go
5 testify.
6 Q You would consider yourself a White
7 House ally, wouldn't you?
8 A If -- I don't know. I don't want
9 to get into a nitpick with you over
10 definitions. I consider myself a long time,
11 relatively close friend of the President and
12 the First Lady. I've known them for over 20
13 years. I obviously support them. I support
14 the Administration. I support much, not
15 everything, but much of what it does.
16 Q That's tantamount to being an ally,
17 is it not?
18 A It's your word. You can pin it on
19 there, if you want. You can pin the tail on
20 that donkey if you want. I just described my
21 feeling. You can characterize it.
22 Q Now, you did discuss with George.
242
1 In addition to these two meetings, you've had
2 several conversations by phone with
3 Mr. Stephanopoulos over the last six months,
4 haven't you?
5 A A couple. It's hard to get either
6 me or George on the phone. So I would say
7 most of the phone calls have resulted in my
8 listening to his messages, his voice mail,
9 and his listening to mine. But I think it's
10 fair to say that I've had two or three, maybe
11 four actual phone conversations, say, are
12 typically very short.
13 Q During those conversations you have
14 discussed gathering information about critics
15 of the Clinton Administration, haven't you?
16 A No. Not to --
17 Q You never discussed that.
18 A No. Gathering -- you don't have to
19 discuss gathering information. They do it
20 all out in the open.
21 Q How so?
22 A Just read about it in the
243
1 newspaper.
2 Q Have you ever discussed gathering
3 information about Clinton critics with anyone
4 in the last six months?
5 A Gathering information?
6 Q Yes.
7 A Not that I recall. I may well
8 have, but I don't have any specific
9 recollection.
10 Q Do you have a general recollection?
11 A I don't even have a general
12 recollection. Again, I may have, but you
13 know, I couldn't give you time, place, date,
14 person or subject matter.
15 Q Just so we're clear, you don't have
16 any memory about that.
17 A No. I've testified, I said I don't
18 have any recollection. That was my word, not
19 you.
20 Q Have you had any conversations with
21 James Carville in the last six months?
22 A I talk to James infrequently.
244
1 Q How many times have you talked to
2 him in the last six months, roughly speaking?
3 A Probably two or three.
4 Q When was the last time you talked
5 to him?
6 A I talked to James early this week.
7 Q Did you talk to him about this
8 Judicial Watch case?
9 A I told him that I was going to have
10 the pleasure of being deposed by you.
11 Q Who called you? Did he call you or
12 did you call him?
13 A I think I called James on this one.
14 Q Where was he at the time?
15 A I never know where James his. You
16 call his office and the next thing you know
17 you hear James on the telephone. I have no
18 idea where he was. I didn't ask him.
19 Q How long did you talk to him?
20 A James is sort of like George.
21 They're short conversations. I would say not
22 over three or four minutes.
245
1 Q What is everything you said to
2 James Carville? Please tell us.
3 A How he was doing, how Mary is
4 doing, how the new baby is doing, you know,
5 how is his speaking fees doing, along those
6 lines. I indicated to him, as I said before,
7 that I was going to be deposed by Judicial
8 Watch. I knew he had been deposed.
9 Q What else did you ask him?
10 A That's about all we talked about.
11 Q What did he say to you?
12 A He said Mary was fine, the baby was
13 fine, the speaking fees were going up. He
14 seemed to be enjoying life.
15 Q What did he tell you about being
16 deposed or about Judicial Watch?
17 A He said little about Judicial
18 Watch. He said he was deposed. It ran about
19 six hours, and you asked him a lot of
20 questions, most of which he thought were
21 irrelevant. But he sat here like a good
22 citizen and answered them.
246
1 Q What else did he say?
2 A That's about it.
3 Q Did he tell you don't worry about
4 it?
5 A What?
6 Q Did he tell you don't worry about
7 the Judicial Watch deposition?
8 A I do not recall him saying that.
9 Q He told you not to discuss certain
10 things when you were deposed?
11 A Did he what?
12 Q Told you not to get into certain
13 areas when you were deposed?
14 A No, not at all.
15 Q Told you about some of his
16 testimony, didn't he?
17 A He didn't have to tell me about his
18 testimony. You threw it up on the Web.
19 Q You read his testimony?
20 A Yes.
21 Q When did you read his testimony?
22 A The last couple weeks.
247
1 Q What other depositions have you
2 read in this lawsuit, if any?
3 A I read James, I read Mr. Carville,
4 Mr. Stephanopoulos and Mr. Lenzner. I
5 figured you wanted us to read the stuff. You
6 put it up on the Web.
7 Q What other conversations have you
8 had with Mr. Carville in the last six months?
9 A I can't remember. The
10 conversations that I have with James are very
11 fleeting. I'll call him to check in, what's
12 happening, what's going on, what does he
13 think. I could not detail. All I know is
14 that there's less than a handful of
15 conversations by my reckoning, and I could
16 not give you the details of when they were or
17 what was discussed in any specificity.
18 Q Did you talk to him about Clinton
19 critics?
20 A I don't know that as a fact. I
21 assume we probably did, a lot of them.
22 Q Who did you talk to him about?
248
1 A I don't know. Starr, I think we
2 probably talked about the independent
3 counsel. But again, these were very brief,
4 short conversations.
5 Q Did you talk to him about Linda
6 Tripp?
7 A I may have. I doubt it.
8 Q What leads you to believe that you
9 may have?
10 A Because that's my answer to most
11 questions, Mr. Klayman. You ought to know
12 that by now.
13 Q No. Actually, I haven't heard many
14 "may haves." I usually hear "I can't
15 remember." There is a difference here. Why
16 do you say may have?
17 A I may have and I may not have.
18 Q Anything's possible. Is that what
19 you are saying?
20 A Is that a question or a statement?
21 Q I'm asking if you actually remember
22 something or are you just saying anything is
249
1 possible, "I don't remember anything, but
2 anything is possible."
3 A No, no. I remember a lot of
4 things, Mr. Klayman. When you read this
5 transcript you'll be surprised how much I did
6 remember. There are certain things I don't
7 remember. Apparently what you want me to do
8 as a lawyer and an officer of the court is to
9 sit here and make things up to suit your
10 fancy. I am not prepared to do that. I am
11 sure that you appreciate that.
12 By the way, I just remembered one
13 thing at lunch, as a matter of fact. When
14 you were asking me about people living at my
15 home, you asked me about a man. There was no
16 man who lived there. There is, and then you
17 went on to other questions and it slipped my
18 mind, there is a young woman who lives there
19 who is an au pair. She is here from abroad
20 on an au pair program and lives there.
21 Q What's her name?
22 MS. SABRIN: You don't have any
250
1 right to that name.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: What's confidential
3 about somebody that lives there?
4 MS. SABRIN: She's a person that
5 takes care of their child.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: You can give it to me
7 in confidence if you want.
8 A Right. We'll do that.
9 Q Before we broke for lunch you
10 talked about "that's not my scheme." What
11 did you mean by "that's not my scheme"?
12 A What I meant very simply in
13 layman's language, or anybody else's
14 language, is that the two individuals that
15 you were questioning about were not people
16 that I spent a lot of time reading about,
17 thinking about or talking about.
18 Q But it seemed to me you were
19 referring to what your role was that you had
20 decided to do with Kantor. We still don't
21 have a good idea of what it is specifically
22 you were to do.