351
1 Ruddy during the period you were at the White
2 House or thereafter?
3 A Not that I know of. I don't think
4 I ever heard the name before I looked at
5 this.
6 Q Had you ever done opposition
7 research or research of any nature on
8 Mr. Ruddy?
9 A Have I ever done opposition
10 research.
11 Q Yes.
12 A I don't know what you mean by the
13 term "opposition." If the question is
14 whether I have done any research on
15 Mr. Ruddy, does research include clipping out
16 a newspaper article?
17 Q Yes.
18 A It does.
19 Q Yes.
20 A Does it include reading about him
21 in the newspaper?
22 Q Yes. It also includes hiring a
352
1 private detective to look into --
2 A No, no, no, I just want to
3 understand, does it include, I just want to
4 understand your definition, because you wax
5 and wane here. Research, as you're using it
6 in this deposition, means it includes reading
7 a newspaper.
8 Q Yes.
9 A I cannot say with any certainty
10 that I have not read Mr. Ruddy's name in the
11 newspaper. I will tell you this that if I
12 did, it made no marked or lasting impression
13 on me.
14 Q Do you know who Mr. Ruddy is?
15 A No.
16 Q You don't.
17 A No. Not that I know of.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what
19 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
20 Exhibit 9.
21 (Ickes Deposition Exhibit No. 9
22 was marked for identification.)
353
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Exhibit 10 --
3 A 10 or 9?
4 Q It's 9. Have you marked it
5 already, Mr. Court Reporter?
6 VIDEOGRAPHER: Yes.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Have you ever seen this document
9 before?
10 A Wait a minute. Let me just look at
11 it for a moment. I think the first time I
12 saw it that I can recall seeing it,
13 Mr. Klayman, was yesterday when we were
14 reviewing documents with my attorney.
15 Q With your attorney.
16 A Mmm-hmm. I mean I just don't have
17 a recollection of seeing it before.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Don't worry, that was
19 not attorney-client privilege, Ms. Sabrin.
20 (Witness conferred with counsel)
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Do you see where it says, "Bernard
354
1 Nussbaum, Counsel to the President, advised
2 that he has known the Appointee for the
3 period of time that he has been employed in
4 the new administration. He had come highly
5 recommended to him by Hillary Clinton, who
6 has known his mother for a longer period of
7 time." Had you ever heard it said that Craig
8 Livingstone was highly recommended by
9 Mrs. Clinton before you saw this document?
10 A I've heard -- well, when you say
11 heard, you mean through my ear or through my
12 eye?
13 Q Through your ear.
14 A I don't think that I've heard it
15 said. I think that I may have run across
16 those assertions. But I don't remember
17 having heard it said, unless it was on a news
18 program.
19 Q Where did you run across those
20 assertions?
21 A I think it has been printed in the
22 public press. That's why I was
355
1 distinguishing between eye and ear.
2 Q Had you ever heard it from anybody
3 outside of the public press?
4 A That --
5 Q That Mrs. Clinton had highly
6 recommended Craig Livingstone.
7 A That Mrs. Clinton highly
8 recommended her?
9 Q Yes, him. It's a him.
10 A Him, I'm sorry. I don't recall it,
11 and I don't believe it.
12 Q You have discussed with
13 Mrs. Clinton who recommended Craig
14 Livingstone, haven't you?
15 A I don't think so. Craig was not
16 somebody that I talked a lot about. I may
17 have had passing conversation with
18 Mrs. Clinton about him, but I for the life of
19 me, I can't recall what it was either
20 specifically or generally as we sit here
21 today under oath.
22 Q You had conversations with the
356
1 President about Craig Livingstone, didn't
2 you?
3 A No. Not that I recall.
4 Q You had conversations with Jane
5 Sherburne about Craig Livingstone, didn't
6 you?
7 A Again, I can't recall the
8 specifics, Mr. Klayman, but I probably did.
9 Q What did you discuss?
10 A I don't recall.
11 Q Did you discuss Craig Livingstone
12 with anybody at the White House?
13 A Asked and answered.
14 Q Do you remember when the so-called
15 Filegate controversy broke in June of '96?
16 A I don't think I understand the
17 question because you just answered the
18 question.
19 Q Well, the Filegate controversy
20 broke in June of '96. Do you accept that?
21 Does that sound about right?
22 A Yeah, I don't accept -- the answer
357
1 is it sounds roughly right.
2 Q Now, what do you remember about
3 what happened inside the White House to
4 figure out what the controversy was about
5 after it came to the public's attention at
6 that time?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm going to caution
8 the witness not to reveal the substance of
9 conversations with counsel in that regard.
10 A Well, I'm at a loss about what to
11 do. I've got Klayman on one side, the
12 government on the other. Let me ask you
13 this: You got to admit, Mr. Klayman, that's
14 an unenviable position to be in.
15 Q Who would you trust more, the
16 government or Larry Klayman?
17 A That's like being between a rock
18 and a hard place. You know what I mean?
19 Anyway, let me ask you this. Do you have a
20 problem if I --
21 MS. SHAPIRO: Why don't we do this.
22 Why don't we take a break.
358
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Do you want other counsel? We'll
3 take a break and let you get some new
4 counsel.
5 A What do you charge?
6 Q I'll do it for free.
7 A Get outta here.
8 Q For you I'll do it for free.
9 A How about disbursements?
10 MS. SHAPIRO: Let's take a quick
11 break, please.
12 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
13 video record at 4:08.
14 (Recess)
15 VIDEOGRAPHER: On video at 4:14.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q I had a question pending.
18 A I forgot it.
19 Q Can we read it back.
20 A I don't care if you do or not.
21 (The reporter read the record as
22 requested.)
359
1 THE WITNESS: As I've already
2 testified, Mr. Klayman, when this controversy
3 first came to light, it's my best
4 recollection Ms. Sherburne, Jack Quinn who
5 was then counsel to the President, and I, and
6 there may have been others, but certainly
7 those three met and decided that this is
8 something that the White House should not
9 investigate. It's my recollection that the
10 FBI started investigating it. At whose
11 request, I don't know. Then later on my
12 recollection is that the independent counsel
13 took over.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Was that decision concurred in by
16 anyone else in the White House? In other
17 words, you didn't get to call the shots on
18 that, did you, you had to go to somebody else
19 to take that position?
20 A I'm confident that I reported or I
21 briefed Leon Panetta on it. Again, I
22 couldn't tell you when, where or the
360
1 specifics. But I'm confident I would have
2 briefed Leon on something like this and that
3 he did not -- that he concurred.
4 Q Was anyone else present when you
5 briefed Leon Panetta on this?
6 A I don't know. It may well have
7 been the three of us who briefed him.
8 Q To be able to brief someone, you
9 have to have basic information. Correct?
10 A We had basic information. We
11 briefed him, Mr. Klayman, just so there's no
12 misunderstanding, we briefed him on the
13 decision that I just testified to. Or, let
14 me put it in a better context, we briefed him
15 on what our recommendation was, and it was a
16 unified recommendation by all three of us.
17 Mr. Panetta agreed with the recommendation
18 and, hence, the White House did not conduct,
19 to my knowledge, did not conduct an
20 investigation of this issue. That's not to
21 say that the White House people did not speak
22 about certain subjects pertaining to it. But
361
1 they did not conduct an investigation, as far
2 as I know.
3 Q Well, I'm not using the word
4 "investigation." What I want to find out is
5 whether certain basic information about what
6 had occurred was gathered by you and
7 Ms. Sherburne and Mr. Quinn, so you had some
8 basic understanding before you went to Leon
9 Panetta with the recommendation.
10 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
11 THE WITNESS: Well, it depends on
12 how you define the term "basic." I think
13 very basic information was already at hand,
14 that is, that files had come over from the,
15 inadvertently come over from the FBI, to the
16 White House's domain, that Mr. Livingstone
17 had been involved in some way, shape or form,
18 and that it was a matter that needed to be
19 clarified and rectified, and that that was
20 something that the White House was not going
21 to be involved in in terms of going out and
22 finding out information, talking to people
362
1 and generally gathering information.
2 We knew there was a problem. I
3 don't think we knew the extent of the
4 problem, but we knew there was certainly a
5 problem. That problem involved FBI files
6 having come over to the White House under
7 circumstances that we certainly did not
8 fully, were not fully aware of in any way,
9 shape or form, at least as far as I knew, and
10 that this was something that the press was
11 mightily interested in, and that it had to be
12 dealt with, but it should be dealt with
13 primarily, not exclusively, but primarily by
14 an agency outside of the White House. My
15 understanding is that the FBI got into it and
16 subsequently the independent counsel took
17 over from the FBI.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q What basic information was gathered
20 inside the White House before you went to
21 Leon Panetta?
22 A I think I testified to that, that
363
1 FBI files, I don't think at that point the
2 exact number was known, had somehow winded
3 their way over from the FBI to the White
4 House. There were some very serious
5 questions raised about the circumstances of
6 how those files left the FBI and got into the
7 White House, who had jurisdiction over them,
8 who had access to them. You know much more
9 about it than I, hopefully, not based on this
10 deposition though. That basically this was
11 something that an outside agency should look
12 at.
13 Q Well, and my simple question is,
14 again, what information was gathered inside
15 the White House? You're talking generally.
16 I'm asking was there anybody assigned to
17 gather some basic information to figure out
18 what happened so you then could reach a
19 recommendation for Mr. Panetta?
20 A No, we reached -- I've already --
21 Mr. Klayman, for the third time, I'll go
22 through this for the third time. We reached
364
1 a recommendation based on very basic
2 information. My best recollection --
3 Ms. Sherburne would be a better person to
4 talk to, but I understand you want to know
5 what I know -- is, my best recollection is
6 that we learned that FBI files, number
7 unknown, were in the White House, and under
8 the circumstances that we didn't understand
9 and were not knowledgeable about.
10 The initial threshold question was
11 should the White House, i.e., Ms. Sherburne
12 and the counsel's office, conduct a thorough
13 investigation of the whys and the wherefores
14 and the how did it all happen and who done it
15 and who shot John, or should somebody else do
16 that. It was our unanimous recommendation
17 that somebody else should do it.
18 So basically we knew what it was.
19 We knew that files had come over. We didn't
20 know the circumstances, we knew there was a
21 great fuss about it, and a legitimate one.
22 I'm not trying to make light of this. That
365
1 the White House was not going to get involved
2 in the investigation business because then
3 the White House investigation would then be
4 investigated.
5 Q Well, where did the basic
6 information come from other than in the
7 media?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Asked and answered.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q You can respond.
11 A Yeah, it sure has been asked and
12 answered. I can't --
13 Q You haven't answered it.
14 A Mr. Klayman, look, we're both
15 lawyers. You may not like the answer. I've
16 answered it.
17 Q Was there a person assigned?
18 A That's all I'm going to say about
19 it. I'm worn out. I'm plum talked out here.
20 Q I'm patient, I'm patient.
21 A Well, I know that.
22 Q Was there a person assigned to
366
1 gather the information when the scandal
2 broke, a person inside the White House?
3 A The people who would have
4 gathered -- I take issue with the word
5 "assignment." The people who would have
6 gathered it, as far as I know, would have
7 been, and the people that I would have relied
8 on for the basic information, would have been
9 Ms. Sherburne primarily and other members of
10 her team in the counsel's office. She was
11 the person --
12 Q Do you remember specifically who?
13 A I just thought I said --
14 Q The members of her team?
15 A No, I have no idea. I was Deputy
16 Chief of Staff, Mr. Klayman. I wasn't
17 running this thing. Come on. Give me a
18 break.
19 Q That's a pretty high position,
20 isn't it?
21 A Huh?
22 Q That's a pretty high position.
367
1 A Well, you know, the higher you go
2 the less you know.
3 Q You wanted to be Chief of Staff,
4 didn't you? That was just the next step up.
5 MS. SABRIN: Objection, relevancy.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Right? You can't get higher than
8 Chief of Staff other than be President, can
9 you?
10 A You can be vice President. You can
11 be First Lady.
12 Q Many people have said the Chief of
13 Staff is more important, haven't they?
14 A Well, it depends on who you talk
15 to.
16 Q You wanted the job of Chief of
17 Staff, didn't you?
18 A How does that bear on this?
19 Q On how you viewed the importance of
20 your job.
21 MS. SHAPIRO: I'll object to the
22 relevancy.
368
1 MS. SABRIN: I'll object to the
2 relevancy of that.
3 A There is no question that I --
4 Q I'm going to give you the documents
5 which you produced earlier today, a stack of
6 them. I want you to turn to, and Mr. Fitton
7 can help you if you don't mind him helping
8 you.
9 MS. SABRIN: Are these going to be
10 made exhibits? I just want to clarify.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, as we go through
12 them but I think it's easier if you just turn
13 to Bates No. 189.
14 MS. SHAPIRO: Do you have another
15 copy of the documents?
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.
17 A 189, Mr. Klayman?
18 Q Yes.
19 A Is it 0189 or 189?
20 Q 0189.
21 A Wait a minute. Bear with me.
22 Q Mr. Fitton can help you if you
369
1 like.
2 A No, I ain't real smart, but I
3 learned the numbering system quite a while
4 ago.
5 MS. SABRIN: While he's looking, do
6 you have any hot water available here?
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Unfortunately not.
8 We could heat it for you if you want it in a
9 microwave.
10 A Only the hot seat.
11 Q By the way, you know you're sitting
12 in John Wong's chair?
13 A No kidding.
14 Q Yeah.
15 A Well, I'm right proud to know that.
16 Wait a minute, 189?
17 Q Yes.
18 A You mean you actually wrote on this
19 particular chair that John Wong sat there?
20 When you look at all these chairs you know as
21 a fact --
22 Q I remember that. I remember that.
370
1 A You remember this chair.
2 Q I remember, he was sitting in that
3 chair.
4 A No, but all of these chairs, he was
5 sitting in this chair?
6 Q He was sitting in that one.
7 A I just want to make sure I'm
8 sitting in the genuine article. You wouldn't
9 pull the wool over my eyes, would you?
10 Q There's no question.
11 A That you would pull the wool over
12 my eyes.
13 Q But I'll tell you, when you leave
14 we'll put a little tag on the back that says
15 "Harold Ickes."
16 A I hope you do. I like brass
17 myself.
18 Q Like the kind they have in
19 restaurants.
20 A Like they do in the -- wait a
21 minute. 18 -- I'm sorry. We got so carried
22 away here with the mirth of the situation.
371
1 189? All right, let me get it. Got it.
2 Q Got it.
3 A Got it on the camera there.
4 Q Have you ever seen this document
5 before?
6 A I --
7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll ask that this be
8 marked as Exhibit 10.
9 (Ickes Deposition Exhibit No. 10
10 was marked for identification.)
11 THE WITNESS: How do you cut this
12 little ticky off? When you see the red, it's
13 on or off?
14 VIDEOGRAPHER: You just turned it
15 off.
16 THE WITNESS: Good.
17 MS. SABRIN: Can we clarify for the
18 record?
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's move it along.
20 MS. SABRIN: When you ask him that
21 question you're excluding conversations with
22 counsel in preparation for this?
372
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q This is a document you produced
3 today. I'm just identifying it. That's all.
4 A Yes.
5 Q You've seen this document before,
6 have you not?
7 A I've seen it with my lawyer. I may
8 have seen it before. It has my writing on
9 it. So I assume that I've seen it.
10 We don't want to miss a pearl of
11 this wisdom.
12 Q Exhibit 10.
13 A I'm sorry.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: We're marking this
15 Exhibit 10. Do you want to give him a
16 sticker and we'll mark this.
17 THE WITNESS: I can write on it.
18 You don't have to worry about it.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Now, this document was kept in your
21 files, was it not?
22 A It was produced out of my files,
373
1 and therefore, I assume kept in my files.
2 Q It's one of the documents you left
3 the White House with.
4 A Yes.
5 Q Part of those 50 boxes that you
6 took when you left in February '97. Correct?
7 A It could have been. Look,
8 Mr. Klayman, this could have been taken out
9 before I left. I don't know.
10 Q Who prepared this document?
11 A I don't know.
12 Q Does the handwriting strike you as
13 any particular individual?
14 A It does not. I don't recognize the
15 handwriting. At the very bottom there's an
16 asterisk which says, "Created by Government
17 Reform and Oversight Staff," presumably
18 referring to either a House or a Senate
19 committee.
20 Q Did Government Reform and Oversight
21 Committee provide this document to you?
22 A I have no idea how I got the
374
1 document.
2 Q It was given to you by White House
3 counsel?
4 A Asked and answered.
5 Q Do you know what this document
6 means?
7 A I don't. I didn't prepare it. It
8 looks like a great spider web to me.
9 Q It has "Jane Sherburne" at the
10 center. Correct?
11 A Oh, there's how it was produced.
12 It was an exhibit from the 8/1/96 Clinger
13 hearing." It was provided, apparently
14 provided to me at either a hearing or a
15 deposition for Mr. Clinger's committee, if my
16 handwriting is to be deciphered correctly and
17 believed.
18 Q Does that refresh your recollection
19 as to whether you were deposed by
20 Mr. Clinger's committee?
21 A It does not refresh my
22 recollection.
375
1 Q Why is Jane Sherburne pictured at
2 the center of this document?
3 A The great spider. I don't know.
4 You would have to ask the staff people or
5 Mr. Clinger who drew this.
6 Q In and around this period was Sally
7 Paxton one of the people that worked with
8 Jane Sherburne?
9 A Ms. Paxton --
10 Q When the scandal broke and you were
11 trying to gather information to make a
12 recommendation to Mr. Panetta?
13 A Well, I disagree with the word
14 "scandal."
15 Q Controversy.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: I object to the
17 characterization.
18 THE WITNESS: Controversy.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Well, we'll use "controversy."
21 A Yes, it's more neutral.
22 MS. SHAPIRO: Let me just also
376
1 assert an objection that it misstates his
2 prior testimony.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Go on.
5 A Ms. Paxton, to the best my
6 knowledge, was working at the White House at
7 that time.
8 Q So she was engaged in the
9 information gathering, at least
10 preliminarily, so you then could make a
11 recommendation to Mr. Panetta.
12 A I don't know whether she was or
13 whether she wasn't. She's here, you can
14 shoot the question to her.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Will you answer,
16 Ms. Paxton?
17 MS. SHAPIRO: No, she won't answer
18 any questions.
19 A Oh, okay, well.
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Sorry.
21 THE WITNESS: The answer is I don't
22 know whether she was engage in whatever very
377
1 basic information was being gathered.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q Was Mr. Fabiani?
4 A I don't know as a fact. He may
5 well have been. He worked very -- he was
6 high up in that unit, as was Ms. Paxton. But
7 I don't know as a fact who worked on that.
8 Q The title of this document is
9 "Heads Up Contacts Before Chairman Clinger
10 saw FBI file." You are aware that the way
11 this controversy arose was a file that came
12 over from the White House to Chairman Clinger
13 in the context of the Travelgate controversy.
14 Correct?
15 A I'm dimly, I dimly remember that,
16 yes.
17 Q What was meant by "heads up"? Was
18 it that Jane Sherburne was tipping people off
19 that this was going to be a controversy when
20 that file was first delivered from the White
21 House to Chairman Clinger's office?
22 A Asked and answered.
378
1 Q Are you saying I asked and answered
2 my own question?
3 A No. You asked me the question
4 about this particular exhibit earlier on in
5 this line of questioning, and I said I didn't
6 know anything about it, you would have to ask
7 either Chairman Clinger or former Chairman
8 Clinger or a member of his staff. I know
9 nothing about this. So I was referencing
10 back to that.
11 Q Do you remember at the White House
12 at the time whether Jane Sherburne or anybody
13 working with her tipped you off that there
14 was going to be a controversy once documents
15 were delivered over to Clinger in the
16 Travelgate matter?
17 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
18 THE WITNESS: When you say the word
19 "tipped off," what does --
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Did anybody come around and say,
22 "We're going to be delivering this file to
379
1 Clinger dealing with Travelgate and there's
2 going to be some questions raised over
3 Clinger's committee about what this all
4 means"?
5 A At what period of time?
6 Q In this period of time?
7 A This being what?
8 Q June of '96.
9 A But this situation had already
10 developed and was in the public domain.
11 Q You do remember that the way this
12 controversy broke --
13 A By June, by June this thing was --
14 Q Let's back up a few months.
15 A I don't know. I'm just using the
16 month you picked.
17 Q I'm saying anytime in the several
18 months leading up to June of '96, did anyone
19 come around and say, "Look, if we turn this
20 file over to Clinger there's going to be some
21 questions raised"?
22 A This file being what file?
380
1 Q In the Travelgate matter.
2 A But what file are you talking
3 about?
4 Q Billy Dale's file.
5 A Oh, Billy Dale's file. Oh, I don't
6 recall that. I recall this sort of popping
7 up like a mushroom.
8 Q Are you saying you don't recall
9 anything about whether or not there was some
10 discussion in the White House that "we have a
11 problem on the horizon concerning FBI files"?
12 A Oh, there was a lot of discussion
13 in the White House about FBI files,
14 considerable.
15 Q But before it was raised by
16 Clinger, wasn't there a discussion or
17 communication in the White House that "We may
18 have to answer some questions about FBI
19 files" before it ever became known by
20 Clinger?
21 A There may have been, Mr. Klayman.
22 I don't have any specific recollection of it,
381
1 but there may have been. There were a lot of
2 discussions in the White House. I
3 participate, you know, as the exalted Deputy
4 Chief of Staff, I had a lot, a lot under my
5 purview. This was but one of them, and it
6 was an important issue. I'm not making light
7 of it in any way, shape or form. But there
8 may have been a discussion. The kind of
9 discussion that you talked about, I don't
10 have a specific recollection of it.
11 Q Do you know of anyone who may have
12 such a recollection?
13 A The word "may" being?
14 Q Well, that's one of your favorite
15 words, "may." I thought I'd use it. I'm
16 also being careful not to use the word
17 "scandal," I'm using "controversy." So I'm
18 trying to put things in your context.
19 A Good. I appreciate that.
20 Q Now, will you respond?
21 A Yeah, you bent over backwards here.
22 May. May could include anybody working with
382
1 Ms. Sherburne, who was my initial point of
2 contact with all of these kinds of matters.
3 I'm not saying she did or she didn't. But
4 people working with her, people in the
5 counsel's office may have. A lot of
6 documents were being produced during that
7 period of time, Mr. Klayman. So on the may
8 list, it could be a pretty long one.
9 Q Who would we in the top five main
10 list?
11 A The top five who I would know of,
12 and I don't know, you know, you had people
13 who were producing documents for various
14 committees. A person by the name of Wendy
15 White had been brought in I think by this
16 time, and was not exclusively but very
17 involved in producing the production of,
18 indexing and the production of documents.
19 She would certainly be one. Ms. Sherburne
20 may have. Mr. Quinn may. Mr. Fabiani may.
21 There are a lot of mays.
22 Q Who was Larry Pedowitz?
383
1 A What?
2 Q Larry Pedowitz.
3 A My recollection is that he was an
4 attorney for Mr. Nussbaum, but don't hold me
5 to that.
6 Q James Fitzpatrick, do you know that
7 name?
8 A I don't.
9 Q Jonathan Yarowsky?
10 A Jonathan Yarowsky worked in,
11 worked for Ms. Sherburne. He worked in that
12 unit that she had overall charge of.
13 Q I take it that Jane Sherburne
14 advised Mrs. Clinton that there was going to
15 be a problem with FBI files in front of
16 Clinger's committee once the file was
17 delivered?
18 MS. SABRIN: Objection. Assumes
19 facts not in evidence.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q You can respond. You are aware of
22 that, aren't you?
384
1 A "You're aware that"?
2 Q That she told Hillary Clinton
3 "there's going to be a problem once we send
4 these documents over to Clinger's committee."
5 A At what period of time are you
6 talking about?
7 Q In around this period of time.
8 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. It lacks
9 foundation.
10 THE WITNESS: I don't know that as
11 a fact.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Marsha Berry, who is Marsha Berry?
14 A I don't know.
15 Q Tom Kelley?
16 A I don't know. It looks like an FBI
17 agent.
18 Q Kathleen Wallman?
19 A Kathleen Wallman at that time was
20 the deputy in the counsel's office to
21 Mr. Quinn.
22 Q Howard Shapiro, did you know Howard
385
1 Shapiro?
2 A I don't think I've met him. My
3 recollection is that he was at one point, and
4 I think at this time, was the General Counsel
5 to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
6 Q When you were Assistant to the
7 President and Deputy Chief of Staff, did you
8 ever communicate with him or his office in
9 any way?
10 A Not that I recall. Something like
11 that would have gone through counsel's
12 office, typically. I don't recall having any
13 communication with him.
14 Q Did you ever meet with him about
15 FBI files?
16 MS. SABRIN: Objection, asked and
17 answered.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You can respond.
20 A Well, just since you've been
21 leaning over backwards for me, I'll lean over
22 backwards for you on this one. I don't
386
1 recall, I don't think I ever met Mr. Shapiro,
2 I don't think I ever talked with him and
3 recall having no meeting with him about FBI
4 files or otherwise.
5 Q Turn your attention --
6 A Are we done with this one?
7 Q Yeah. Turn your attention to a
8 document which is Bates-stamped JW 440
9 and 441.
10 A 0440?
11 Q No, it's 440 and 441. It's on
12 eight by 14 inch paper.
13 A 440? Oh, okay.
14 Q Do you have a copy of that?
15 A We're getting there. I have it.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: I ask that this
17 document be marked Exhibit 11. It consists
18 of two pages. Do we have a sticker we can
19 put on that, Mr. Videographer.
20 VIDEOGRAPHER: Yes.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Let's mark Mr. Ickes'
22 copy.
387
1 (Ickes Deposition Exhibit No. 11
2 was marked for identification.)
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Have you ever seen this document
5 before?
6 A As I sit here today, I don't
7 recognize it. It's in my handwriting. So it
8 certainly appears to be notes that I took, so
9 I must have seen it.
10 Q It's dated 9/9/96, correct?
11 A Yes, it is.
12 Q It consists of two pages?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Was it taken in a particular
15 meeting?
16 A I don't know whether it was a
17 meeting or a conference call. It strikes me
18 at the top it says "conference call," so it
19 was probably a telephone conference call,
20 Mr. Klayman.
21 Q Do you know who was present during
22 the conference call? The people who are
388
1 listed on the top --
2 A The only thing I can say are the
3 four people who are listed on the top.
4 Q Why don't you read this document to
5 us, top to bottom.
6 A Okay.
7 Q Let's start "9/9/96, 5:15 p.m.
8 Tuesday 9/10/96, conference call." Right?
9 A Are you going to read it or do you
10 want me to read it?
11 Q Well, I was able to read that.
12 A Oh, okay. Well, you go ahead.
13 Q Did I read that correctly?
14 A Oh, yeah, you did fine.
15 Q Well, why don't you take it from
16 there.
17 A Oh, okay.
18 Q What's to the right of it?
19 A There's a box, dash, "Peter K."
20 Q Who is that?
21 A I don't know as a fact. I think
22 it's probably Peter Kasdic.
389
1 Q Peter Kasnic?
2 A Kasdic.
3 Q How's that spelled?
4 A I can't spell.
5 Q Why don't you spell it
6 phonetically.
7 A I went to the University of
8 Arizona.
9 Q Kasdic, is that his name?
10 A Kasdic.
11 Q Kasdic.
12 A How do you spell it? Oh. It could
13 be. I don't know. It's either Peter Kasdic,
14 K-a-s-d-i-c -- see, now you're going to
15 embarrass me. He's going to see this on the
16 Web page, he's going to call me up and say,
17 "For Chrissake, you don't even know how to
18 spell my last name." You really do know how
19 to put a guy between a rock and a hard place.
20 You are going to have everybody in the world
21 pissed off at me. Come on.
22 Q Who is Peter Kasdic?
390
1 A That's not fair, it's not fair.
2 Q Who is Peter Kasdic?
3 A He's a lawyer.
4 Q Was he working for the White House
5 at the time?
6 A He worked at some point for the
7 DNC. It also could be Peter Knight. I don't
8 know whether it was Peter Knight or Peter
9 Kasdic.
10 Q What was Peter Knight doing at the
11 time?
12 A In 9/9/96 he was the campaign
13 manager for the Clinton/Gore campaign.
14 Q Peter Kasdic, at that time, who was
15 he working for?
16 A As I recall, he was working for
17 either the campaign -- he was a lawyer who
18 had taken a leave of absence from his law
19 firm. I think at this time, but don't hold
20 me to it, he was working either for the
21 Clinton/Gore campaigns or I think he was
22 working for the DNC, Democratic National
391
1 Committee.
2 Q What's the next name there?
3 A Lynn U, Lynn Utrek.
4 Q Who is Lynn Utrek?
5 A She was the General Counsel to the
6 Clinton/Gore campaign.
7 Q Who's next?
8 A Jack Q, undoubtedly refers to Jack
9 Quinn.
10 Q What's the next?
11 A HI refers to me.
12 Q Harold Ickes.
13 A Yes.
14 Q You ordinarily when you take notes
15 and you have a conference call, you put the
16 names of the participants on the top.
17 A It depends how fast the call is
18 moving, and the meeting, how many people are
19 in it.
20 Q Do you have a little code in terms
21 of how you identify who took place, do you
22 always put them in a box?
392
1 A Oh, no. They're sort of doodles,
2 you know. I have no specific format.
3 Sometimes names are here. Sometimes they're
4 over on the left side.
5 Q It sort of comes to you at the
6 time?
7 A Yes, it's a creative process.
8 Q Read the next.
9 A 1, PK arrow, Morris may have given
10 the contract to him, Peter Baker, underlined.
11 Q What contract are you referring to?
12 A Again, I don't know specifically.
13 I think at this time, this was shortly after
14 the Democratic National Convention, and it
15 may well be referring to the contract between
16 the campaign and the group that Dick Morris
17 was associated with. For shorthand, we call
18 it the November 5 Group.
19 Q Peter Baker refers to the reporter
20 of The Washington Post?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Why is his name put there?
393
1 A To identify the word "him" is my
2 best recollection.
3 Q What's the context of this
4 conversation, what were you talking about
5 generally?
6 A Well, that's a good question. I
7 don't have a lot of recollection of it.
8 There was --
9 Q Do you want to read the whole
10 document first?
11 A I don't know. I'm just following
12 your instructions here. I thought you wanted
13 me to read it first.
14 Q Well, if you need to read it so you
15 can tell me generally what the subject matter
16 is.
17 A Do you want me to read it or do you
18 want me to talk about it or how do you want
19 to do it? I'll do it anyway you want.
20 Q Why don't you read it first if you
21 can't testify from memory right now.
22 A Oh, you want me to read the whole
394
1 document. I was just starting off reading
2 the whole document.
3 Q Go ahead.
4 A You asked me to read the whole
5 document, okay. But you keep interrupting
6 me. "Baker is now asking C/G if DM is such a
7 SOB that he. JQ."
8 Q Wait, wait. Who is C/G?
9 A C/G? Clinton/Gore, meaning,
10 referring to the campaign.
11 Q What is DM?
12 A DM is Dick Morris. Should I carry
13 on?
14 Q Yes.
15 A "JQ."
16 Q Who is JQ?
17 A I assume it refers to Jack Quinn.
18 Q You're relating different
19 conversations. This was a statement by Peter
20 Knight or Peter Kasdic?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Okay.
395
1 A So this is now Quinn's role in the
2 script.
3 Q Quinn's retort.
4 A Yes. This is sort of like a, you
5 know, like a play on Broadway. "JQ -- does
6 the term of the contract carry over month by
7 month. LU -- presumably referring to Lynn
8 Utrek, feels one could. JQ -- This is such
9 an inside story 12 people give a shit about
10 this." Outrageous language being used by the
11 counsel to the President.
12 Q Let's stop here. You drew a little
13 line. Does that mark one subject of the
14 conversation during this telephone call?
15 A You got me. It probably did, but I
16 don't know that as a fact.
17 Q Is that your modus operandi, to use
18 a little Latin?
19 A Is that the what?
20 Q Is that the way of doing things
21 when you shift to another conversation, you
22 put a line generally?
396
1 A You got to remember, I went to the
2 University of Arizona. I didn't take Latin.
3 Sometimes I do. There's no, you know, again,
4 there's no set pattern to my note taking.
5 Q So what's being discussed here?
6 A You mean above the line.
7 Q Yeah. What's the general gist of
8 this exercise in profanity?
9 A As I recall, there was, what was
10 being discussed it appears is whether or not
11 the contract -- and, quite frankly, I'm not
12 even sure there was an existing contract, a
13 signed contract at that time, between the
14 Clinton/Gore campaign and the November 5
15 Group, which I've identified earlier, whether
16 Morris had given the contract to Peter Baker
17 and whether or not the contract carries over
18 month by month.
19 It appears from the truncated
20 sentence beginning with "LU" that LU feels
21 one could. I don't know whether she felt it
22 could -- I don't recall whether she felt it
397
1 could be interpreted as carrying over or
2 interpreted as not carrying over.
3 Q What was the issue? Why was Dick
4 Morris involved? Why was this coming up?
5 Was this a controversy?
6 A Well, it was a controversy because
7 Mr. Morris' fetish for toes had gotten in his
8 way and he had been relieved of his
9 responsibilities during the Democratic
10 National Convention which occurred just prior
11 to this, and I think had been shipped by his
12 wife back East, as I recall. There was some
13 concern about the terms and conditions of the
14 contract, because the contract involved, as I
15 recall, a number of people. All I can recall
16 for you at this point is that there was
17 discussion about the contract. I assume that
18 it must have related to Dick's fairly recent
19 departure from the campaign.
20 Q Was it something that Dick Morris
21 had released to Peter Baker that was viewed
22 as a possible cause of embarrassment to the
398
1 Clinton/Gore campaign?
2 A Not that I recall. I mean all I
3 can tell you is from these notes it appears
4 that the discussion at the top quarter of the
5 page dealt with whether he had given the
6 contract to Peter Baker. You know,
7 typically, people don't like their contracts
8 being bandied around in The Washington Post.
9 It's just sort of a punctiliousness on the
10 part of the campaign, I suppose, or a
11 sensitivity.
12 Q What does punctilious mean?
13 A You'd have to look it up. I went
14 to the University of Arizona.
15 Q Did you learn it there?
16 A I don't know. I think I learned it
17 in a bar one night.
18 Q Have you ever provided this
19 document to anybody else?
20 A This document?
21 Q Yes.
22 A I provided it to my lawyers.
399
1 Q Has it ever been produced to anyone
2 other than Judicial Watch?
3 A Boy, I don't -- Mr. Klayman, I'm
4 not trying to duck your question. I produced
5 so many documents over the past four years I
6 couldn't any more tell you whether it's been
7 produced or not. It's just been like, you
8 know, a U-Haul truck.
9 Q Let's go to No. 2.
10 A Okay.
11 Q What's said there?
12 A It says 2, "Clinger," presumably
13 referring to Chairman Clinger or former
14 Chairman Clinger. Dash, "DM filed affidavit
15 saying he was only talking about polling data
16 when he told Sherry R," presumably meaning --
17 Q Sherry Rowlands?
18 A The lady whose toes he was
19 allegedly sucking on, "about HRC," meaning
20 Mrs. Clinton, "and FBI file."
21 Q DM means Dick Morris.
22 A Yes. I think in this context it
400
1 does.
2 Q How did this arise in the
3 conversation?
4 A I don't know.
5 Q Was it that people in the
6 conversation were pleased that Dick Morris
7 had filed that affidavit saying that he was
8 only talking about polling data to Sherry
9 Rowlands?
10 A Mr. Klayman, this happened almost
11 coming up on two years ago. I've done a lot
12 since then. I do not remember the specifics
13 of what the concern was.
14 Q Now, before you had this
15 conversation on or about September 9th, 1996,
16 you had been aware that Dick Morris'
17 girlfriend, Sherry Rowlands, had said that he
18 had told her, as recorded in her diary, that
19 Hillary Rodham Clinton was the mastermind of
20 Filegate.
21 A Right.
22 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form