0101
1 requested in Judicial Watch's subpoena, which is
2 Exhibit 1?
3 MR. HANSEN: Objection, misstates the --
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q. You can respond.
6 MR. HANSEN: Let me just get the
7 objection out. Objection, assumes a fact not in
8 evidence.
9 THE WITNESS: I think there are two
10 answers to that. One is that Mr. Potts was on
11 suspension during that entire time frame, I
12 believe, although I haven't gone back and tracked
13 the exact times. And, second of all, having
14 known Mr. Potts now for as long as I have, I have
15 an absolute certainty, absolute certainty, that
16 he would have not been engaged in anything
17 inappropriate while he was at the FBI --
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q. The bottom line is, Mr. Lenzner, you
20 didn't look into his employment file to see if
21 there was relevant information that Judicial
22 Watch requested, correct?
0102
1 A. I didn't even think about it.
2 Q. Did you speak with Mr. Potts about your
3 deposition here today in this lawsuit, Alexander
4 versus FBI?
5 A. Well, Mr. Potts has been out of the
6 country for almost two weeks.
7 Q. Why can't you just say yes or no? It
8 calls for yes or no.
9 MR. HANSEN: Look, Mr. Klayman, you're
10 not entitled to argue with the witness.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not responsive.
12 MR. HANSEN: If you don't think the
13 answer is responsive then you can ask a follow-up
14 question. The witness is entitled to give an
15 answer.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q. I certainly have been doing that. I'm
18 trying to move it along, Mr. Lenzner. If you
19 give me a yes or no and then give me any
20 explanation you'd like, maybe after you give me
21 yes or no you'll decide that you don't have to
22 give me an explanation.
0103
1 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, please, I don't
2 think you need to argue with the witness.
3 Mr. Lenzner --
4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not arguing. I'm
5 making a helpful suggestion.
6 MR. HANSEN: Well, that's -- we very much
7 appreciate that.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll argue with you,
9 Mr. Hansen.
10 THE WITNESS: I mentioned it briefly to
11 him the telephone.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q. When did you talk to him?
14 A. I talked to him last -- two nights ago,
15 and I told him that I had received a subpoena and
16 I was probably going to have to testify.
17 Q. And what did he say to you?
18 A. He said, that's a shame, I'm sorry to
19 hear it.
20 Q. Did he say anything else?
21 A. No.
22 Q. This is a crack investigator from the FBI
0104
1 that says it's a shame, says nothing else?
2 MR. HANSEN: Objection, argumentative.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q. You expect me to believe that?
5 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman -- I'm going to
6 withhold comment on that. That's not an
7 appropriate comment. I ask you to withdraw that
8 question.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q. He said something else to you, didn't he?
11 MR. GAFFNEY: I would like to make an
12 objection for the record that, Mr. Klayman, I'd
13 ask you to treat the witness and counsel with a
14 little more respect. I made the same request at
15 the last deposition that you conducted at this
16 site, and I just reiterate it. Thank you.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes. And I think the
18 record will bear that out.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q. But I find this one hard to believe.
21 Didn't he say something else to you, Mr. Lenzner?
22 A. No, he didn't.
0105
1 MR. HANSEN: I move to strike your
2 personal impressions or what is unbelievable.
3 You can ask whatever questions you want.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Put your objection on the
5 record.
6 MR. HANSEN: I have. I'm asking you to
7 withdraw the personal comment because it's not
8 appropriate.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q. Didn't you ask Mr. Potts what's this FBI
11 thing all about?
12 A. I did not.
13 Q. Didn't you ask Mr. Potts what's Judicial
14 Watch all about?
15 A. I did not.
16 Q. Have you ever asked anybody that
17 question?
18 A. I probably spoke to Mr. Hansen about it.
19 But Mr. Potts was engaged in a very important
20 investigation out of the country, and I, frankly,
21 was communicating with him on some very serious
22 matters that are currently before us for clients,
0106
1 and, to be perfectly frank, the issue of this
2 was, if not totally irrelevant, significantly
3 less important to us than what he was doing in
4 the foreign country and all the other matters
5 that were coming into the office that he was a
6 part of.
7 Q. Did you ever meet George Stephanopoulos?
8 A. I believe I met Mr. Stephanopoulos on one
9 occasion.
10 Q. When was that?
11 A. I don't remember the exact date, but I
12 remember the event, if that would help you. I
13 was invited by Lee Brown, who was then the drug
14 czar, so-called drug czar, to come have lunch
15 with him at the White House mess. I had met Lee
16 when I was retained to assist his task force on a
17 missing of murdered children investigation in
18 Atlanta when he was police commissioner of
19 Atlanta, and we had stayed in somewhat
20 communication since then.
21 Q. That's fine. Have you ever had any
22 business dealings with Mr. Stephanopoulos where
0107
1 you communicated with him over any investigations
2 you or your company were performing?
3 A. Never.
4 Q. Okay. Have you ever talked to him about
5 this particular lawsuit, Alexander versus FBI?
6 A. Never.
7 Q. Are you aware that he's been deposed in
8 this case?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you talk to him about that?
11 A. I did not.
12 Q. Have you ever met or spoken with
13 Mr. Sidney Blumenthal?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When did you first have any contact with
16 Mr. Blumenthal?
17 A. The first time I was introduced to
18 Mr. Blumenthal was outside the grand jury room
19 when I was waiting to testify.
20 Q. Have you ever had any business dealings
21 with Mr. Blumenthal?
22 A. No.
0108
1 Q. Have you talked to Mr. Blumenthal about
2 this case, Alexander various FBI?
3 A. No, I was just was introduced to him. It
4 was sort of a crowd outside waiting to get in,
5 and --
6 Q. Have you ever met Rahm Emanuel?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Have you ever spoken with Rahm Emanuel?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Have you ever had any business dealings
11 indirectly with Rahm Emanuel?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Have you ever communicated with
14 William Kennedy?
15 A. No.
16 Q. The former counsel of the White House
17 Counsel's Office?
18 A. No, I know who he is. I know who he is,
19 no.
20 Q. Never met him?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Never had any business dealings with him
0109
1 directly or indirectly?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Have you ever heard of a
4 John Collingwood?
5 A. No.
6 Q. C O L L I N G W O O D?
7 A. Never heard of him.
8 Q. Have you ever had any communications with
9 Billy Dale?
10 A. No.
11 Q. John Dreylinger, D R E Y L I N G E R?
12 A. Never heard of him.
13 Q. Barney Brasseux, B R A S S E U X?
14 A. Never heard of him.
15 Q. Ralph Maughan, M A U G H A N?
16 A. Same answer, never heard of him.
17 Q. Ron Van Eimeren? That's V A N, new word,
18 E I M E R E N.
19 A. Never heard of him.
20 Q. John Sweeney?
21 A. I think I knew a John Sweeney, but I
22 don't think it's the same -- it can't be the
0110
1 same.
2 Q. The one of the AFL-CIO is the one you
3 knew?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Or formerly?
6 A. No, no. This is a former football player
7 who played with me in college.
8 Q. Okay. And Gary Wright?
9 A. No.
10 Q. What position did you play?
11 A. I played middle guard and linebacker.
12 Q. Offense and defense?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The good ole days?
15 A. Leather helmets.
16 Q. You like Chuck Bednarik?
17 A. He was my hero.
18 Q. Mine too.
19 A. And Bernie Lemneck.
20 MR. HANSEN: Fascinating but hardly tied
21 to much to the --
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Creating a little rapport
0111
1 here with the witness.
2 THE WITNESS: We're bonding.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q. Right. Not too much.
5 Sherry Rowlands?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know who Sherry Rowlands is?
8 A. Is that the widow of the guy who was
9 buried in --
10 Q. No, that's another person.
11 A. Oh, no, I don't know who it is.
12 Q. Sherry Rowlands was the girlfriend of
13 Dick Morris.
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you know Dick Morris?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Never met him?
18 A. Never.
19 Q. Never talked to him?
20 A. Never talked to him.
21 Q. William Jefferson Clinton?
22 A. Never met him.
0112
1 Q. Have you ever talked to him?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you ever meet him?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you ever have any business dealings
6 with him directly or indirectly?
7 MR. HANSEN: I think on that one I'm
8 going to have to instruct on the prior objection
9 as to attorney-client, work product, and
10 confidential trade secret information.
11 THE WITNESS: I'll accept those
12 instructions.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Is that an instruction not
14 to answer?
15 MR. HANSEN: To the extent that your
16 question calls for information covered by those
17 privilege, it is.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: You're saying I can't ask
19 whether he has worked in indirectly for
20 Bill Clinton?
21 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, I have given my
22 objection. You can go ahead and ask your next
0113
1 question. I believe if you can disclose that
2 information, that it is in the public domain and,
3 therefore, has been consented to be released, you
4 can do so, but I instruct you not to go beyond
5 that.
6 THE WITNESS: Within public domain both
7 Messrs. Bennett and Kendall have disclosed our
8 retention on behalf of the President and to the
9 extent that the Legal Defense Fund -- that he was
10 a beneficiary of the Legal Defense Fund, I
11 suppose that was also publicly disclosed.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q. Have you ever been retained directly or
14 indirectly on behalf of Hillary Rodham Clinton?
15 MR. HANSEN: Same instruction with
16 respect to privileges. I'm going to instruct
17 Mr. Lenzner not to answer on the grounds that if
18 he discloses who his clients aren't that leads to
19 Mr. Klayman to question as to who his clients
20 are, and to the extent the clients are a matter
21 of confidential, proprietary business information
22 for Mr. Lenzner, he can't so divulge without
0114
1 violating his agreements with clients who have
2 not agreed to waive confidentiality with respect
3 to retention of him.
4 THE WITNESS: I'll accept that.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't accept that.
6 Certify it.
7 MR. HANSEN: Why don't we certify a
8 bathroom break, Mr. Klayman, if that's all right
9 with you?
10 MR. KLAYMAN: You'd like to have a
11 bathroom break?
12 MR. HANSEN: If you have a serious
13 objection, I'll be happy to --
14 MR. KLAYMAN: I have no problem. If you
15 want to take a bathroom break, feel free.
16 MR. HANSEN: I thought maybe others in
17 the room -- it's getting -- it's about quarter to
18 noon. We've been sitting here for an hour and
19 forty-five minutes.
20 MR. GAFFNEY: Thank you, Mr. Hansen.
21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off video
22 record at 12:04.
0115
1 (Pause in the proceedings.)
2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
3 record at 12:13.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q. Mr. Lenzner, let me just go quickly
6 through your educational background. Just
7 identify for me on the record.
8 A. Oh, you want me to do that?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Starting how far back, sir?
11 Q. College and law school.
12 A. Okay.
13 MR. HANSEN: Can I ask, did you just
14 state the time for the record -- I thought we
15 heard 12:13 or something. That's not right.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Hansen is right. It's
17 11:50.
18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I have to go by this
19 for --
20 MR. HANSEN: I'm sorry to interrupt.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we go off the record?
22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video
0116
1 record at 11:55.
2 (Discussion off the record.)
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
4 record at 12:15.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Let the record reflect that
6 the court reporter's internal clock on the video
7 because of equipment discrepancies shows that the
8 time now is 12:15. In reality, the time is
9 11:56, so when he sets forth the time, he's about
10 20 minutes ahead of the actual time. And he's
11 going to try to correct this during lunch.
12 MR. HANSEN: Just for the record, we've
13 been keeping our own careful track of elapsed
14 time, and obviously at the conclusion of six
15 hours, we'll conclude the deposition. Thank you
16 for explaining what the problem is with the video
17 time.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the court gets to
19 decide the length and during of the deposition,
20 but I understand your position.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. Mr. Lenzner, just state your college
0117
1 degree.
2 A. Oh, yes. Harvard Undergrad and Harvard
3 Law School.
4 Q. And what did you do after graduating from
5 law school?
6 A. Excuse me. I joined the Civil Right's
7 Division of the Department of Justice and worked
8 on the Philadelphia and Mississippi murder case
9 in Selma, Alabama, grand jury.
10 Q. How long did you work with the Civil
11 Right's Division?
12 A. Three years.
13 Q. What was your title?
14 A. Trial attorney.
15 Q. During the period that you worked with
16 the Civil Right's Division, did you have an
17 opportunity to work with the Federal Bureau of
18 Investigation?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. And you became intermittently familiar
21 with its investigative techniques?
22 MR. HANSEN: Objection to "intermittently
0118
1 familiar." You can answer.
2 THE WITNESS: I learned a lot from them.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q. Exactly how did you work with them? What
5 were the dynamics?
6 A. In the -- well, it differed from -- it
7 differed from case-to-case. In the Philadelphia
8 and Mississippi murder, Shova County murder case
9 we actually -- the trial attorneys were running
10 parallel investigations to the FBI. The FBI was
11 focused primarily on the Klan and the
12 conspirators. We were focused primarily on a
13 series of victims that had been identified by the
14 Bureau, and we were spending most of our time
15 interviewing victims of other acts of racism and
16 police brutality. And then when the Bureau
17 developed the informant, we started putting
18 together an indictment and then we put together a
19 trial team and tried the case.
20 Q. You worked closely with the FBI agents in
21 terms of conducting investigations?
22 A. Well, in the voting rights area,
0119
1 absolutely. In the voting rights area, the
2 Bureau was to, actually, go down and photograph
3 the voting registration records and then we would
4 tell them what records we wanted photographed and
5 then we would do the analysis. They also
6 conducted interviews of voting registrars and
7 some of the people that we wanted interviewed.
8 Q. During the time that you worked in that
9 Civil Right's Division, when was that? Give me
10 the years.
11 A. 1964 through '67.
12 Q. And you became familiar with the practice
13 of the FBI of keeping files on people that were
14 interviewed?
15 MR. HANSEN: Let me just interpose an
16 objection, Mr. Klayman. I'm objecting under Rule
17 45(c)(3)(b)(2) in that your questioning under the
18 subpoena appears to me to require disclosure of
19 an unretained expert's opinion or information not
20 describing specific events or occurences in
21 dispute and resulting from the expert's study
22 made not at the request of any party.
0120
1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just getting some
2 background information. We'll argue about
3 whether he's an expert or not later.
4 You can respond.
5 THE WITNESS: I was familiar with the 302
6 system of recording the results of interviews on
7 what the Bureau used -- their terminology was on
8 302 memos which were then sent to the main
9 department.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q. And you were aware that those 302s went
12 into an FBI file about each person that was
13 interviewed by the FBI?
14 A. I think they went into -- well, I don't
15 know about that. They went into our case files
16 and they would have gone into the case files that
17 were germane to the particular case I was working
18 on.
19 Q. When you took your job at the Department
20 of Justice, did you go through an FBI background
21 clearance?
22 A. Yes.
0121
1 Q. Can you tell me exactly what the FBI did
2 in terms of your clearance?
3 MR. HANSEN: Objection, calls for
4 speculation.
5 THE WITNESS: To the extent that I have
6 any knowledge of that, I heard from people at
7 Harvard that a Bureau agent had called them.
8 Maybe my neighbors were interviewed. I really
9 don't have a great specificity of recollection on
10 that because it was 30 some years ago, but --
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q. But you are aware that the information
13 that was collected was to remain confidential in
14 FBI files?
15 MR. HANSEN: Objection, calls for a legal
16 conclusion.
17 THE WITNESS: I certainly assumed that it
18 would.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q. Have you since learned that these kinds
21 of background checks would remain confidential,
22 not to be disclosed by the FBI?
0122
1 MR. HANSEN: Same objection.
2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, sir. Could
3 you --
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q. Have you since learned that these
6 background checks are confidential and not to be
7 disclosed by the FBI?
8 A. I always assumed they were confidential.
9 Q. But have you learned that?
10 MR. HANSEN: Same objection.
11 THE WITNESS: Learned it from the FBI?
12 Learned it from a source? No.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q. Any place?
15 A. In 1964, I assumed that nobody would
16 disseminate the results of the background
17 investigation on me unless it was relevant to an
18 investigation or further security classification.
19 Q. Did you ever look into your FBI file?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Have you ever asked to?
22 A. I have never.
0123
1 Q. After you left the Civil Right's
2 Division, what, if anything, did you do?
3 A. I joined the U.S. Attorney's Office in
4 the Southern District of New York and became an
5 assistant U.S. Attorney.
6 Q. And what year was that?
7 A. I believe it was '67.
8 Q. What was your title?
9 A. Assistant U.S. Attorney and ultimately
10 assigned to the Organized Crime Unit.
11 Q. And how long did you stay?
12 A. I stayed until 19 -- wait a minute. I
13 think I, actually, joined the U.S. Attorney's
14 Office in '66 and I left in '69.
15 Q. Who was the U.S. Attorney during that
16 period?
17 A. Robert Morganthal.
18 Q. Why did you leave the Civil Right's
19 Division for the U.S. Attorney's Office in
20 New York?
21 A. I left for several reasons. I left
22 because I was on a highway when -- what was the
0124
1 guy that integrated --
2 MR. HANSEN: Edgar Hoover?
3 THE WITNESS: Meredith.
4 MR. HANSEN: James Meredith.
5 THE WITNESS: I was assigned to be the
6 liaison on a march that Meredith made to -- from
7 Memphis to Jackson, Mississippi, and the second
8 day on the March he was shot with a shotgun. I
9 ran into a guy I prosecuted -- a Mississippi
10 highway patrolman. I ran into him at a hotel I
11 was staying at, and I was about a mile ahead of
12 Mrs. Leotzo when she was shot. Her whole car was
13 shot by the Klan after the march from someone in
14 Montgomery, and I started sleeping on the floor
15 in my hotel and I started getting paranoid and I
16 decided it was time to get out.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q. You thought you might get killed?
19 A. I thought I might get injured.
20 Q. So you went to work for the U.S.
21 Attorney's Office. And in the course of your
22 work there, what were your duties and
0125
1 responsibilities?
2 A. To work with various government agencies
3 in conducting investigations of Federal crimes,
4 running grand juries, bringing indictments,
5 bringing indictments to trial, and then arguing
6 appellate arguments on convictions.
7 Q. Which agencies did you work on behalf of,
8 government agencies?
9 A. We worked with, of course, the FBI. We
10 worked with the Secret Service, the Postal
11 Inspectors, the IRS, Intelligence and Organized
12 Crime Section. We started getting -- did I say
13 the Postal Inspectors?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Oh, and, of course, what was then BNDD,
16 which was a narcotics group.
17 Q. Were you in the criminal division?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And who was your immediate supervisor?
20 A. Well, let's see, John Sprizzo.
21 Q. Sprizzo?
22 A. S P R I Z Z O.
0126
1 Q. Do you know where he is today?
2 A. Yes, he's a Federal judge in the Southern
3 District.
4 Q. Of New York?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. During your period in the U.S. Attorney's
7 Office, did you have a chance to work with the
8 Federal Bureau of Investigation?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you worked with its agents?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What were some of the agent's names that
13 you worked with?
14 A. Well, I remember -- I don't remember all
15 of them obviously. But I remember the first FBI
16 agent I worked with, I, actually, went to trial
17 because he put the case together was Edward Best,
18 B E S T. That's going to be a stretch for me to
19 remember.
20 Q. Just a few. If you want to come back to
21 it later, we can come back to it later.
22 A. No, I would have to refresh -- I don't
0127
1 know how I'd refresh my recollection on that.
2 There were agents in and out of my office ranging
3 from, I mean, hijacking to organized crime to
4 multi-search warrants for an organized crime
5 gambling case. I worked very closely with a very
6 good agent in that case, and I'm trying to
7 remember his name.
8 Q. Tell me the role of how an assistant U.S.
9 Attorney in your position worked with the FBI.
10 What was the motis operandi, so to speak?
11 MR. HANSEN: I'm going to restate my Rule
12 45 objection.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Roughly speaking. Just
14 trying to get an idea of what he did when he was
15 in the U.S. Attorney's Office.
16 MR. HANSEN: Rule 45 objection as
17 previously stated.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q. How does an assistant U.S. Attorney work
20 with FBI agents?
21 A. Well, it varied in terms of how well
22 developed the case was and whether it was just
0128
1 being initiated. Sometimes the Bureau would come
2 in and they would simply want a search warrant on
3 a case that they developed significantly to that
4 point, and we go through with them the adequacy
5 of the probable cause basis for the search
6 warrant and then draft the search warrant for
7 them and then go before a magistrate. It may
8 well be -- I had a lengthy case involving
9 Salvatore Bonano, and I developed that in -- very
10 much in the grand jury, and the grand jury
11 investigation, actually, made the case because we
12 were able to get Bonano to testify and a lot of
13 witnesses came in and were able to contradict his
14 testimony and we indicted him, convicted him for
15 mail fraud and perjury.
16 So it really depended on how complex the
17 case was, how many documents we needed to
18 accumulate, how many witnesses we needed to
19 interview, and, basically, the Bureau was working
20 in tandem on a constant basis with the
21 assistants.
22 Q. And the role of the FBI agent was vital
0129
1 in terms of conducting investigations in the U.S.
2 Attorney's Office, correct?
3 A. I'd say is vital but other agencies were
4 also very important. And, in fact, we had
5 multi -- I had multi-jurisdictional agencies
6 working for me on several cases.
7 Q. Would it be fair to say that you became
8 very familiar with the informational gathering
9 techniques of the Federal Bureau of Investigation
10 during your time with the Civil Right's Division
11 and then with the U.S. Attorney's Office in the
12 Southern District of New York?
13 A. To the extent --
14 MS. GILES: I would object to any
15 questions that call for a law enforcement
16 privilege to the extent there are any techniques
17 that aren't publicly known on behalf of the
18 Department of Justice. I would object.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q. I never asked the question. You can
21 answer my question, though.
22 MR. HANSEN: I'd also reexpress the Rule0130
1 45. May I have a continuing Rule 45 objection to
2 this line of questioning?
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, yes.
4 THE WITNESS: The question was did I
5 become familiar with their techniques?
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q. You became very familiar with the
8 informational gathering techniques of the
9 Federal Bureau of Investigation during your
10 time with the Civil Right's Division and then
11 with the U.S. Attorney's Office in New York,
12 correct?
13 A. As they -- as they were related to
14 criminal matters that we were investigating and
15 prosecuting.
16 Q. Correct. And you became familiar with
17 their techniques of interviewing potential
18 witnesses, correct?
19 You have to respond.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you became familiar with how that
22 information was stored by the FBI?0131
1 MR. HANSEN: Objection to the form.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q. How it was committed to writing?
4 A. Yes. Well, to the extent that when it
5 was transmitted to us, I certainly was familiar
6 with that.
7 Q. And you became familiar with the usages
8 of that information, correct?
9 MR. HANSEN: Objection to "usages" of the
10 information.
11 THE WITNESS: I became familiar with how
12 we used the information. Is that what you mean?
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. And you became familiar with what
17 information was to remain classified and what
18 information was not classified that they
19 collected, correct? "They," meaning the FBI.
20 MR. HANSEN: Objection, calls for a legal
21 conclusion.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
0132
1 Q. You can respond.
2 A. I don't have a recollection of a
3 classification issue in any of the work that I
4 did. Maybe I don't understand the question.
5 Q. I'm talking about during the time you
6 were at the Civil Right's Division and the U.S.
7 Attorney's Office.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You were aware that some information was
10 to remain confidential, others could be used
11 publicly, correct? There was some type of
12 differentiation, was there not?
13 MR. HANSEN: Objection to form.
14 THE WITNESS: Most of the matters I was
15 dealing with were going to be used in grand jury
16 proceedings, and, therefore, would never be
17 released publicly until there was a -- when and
18 if there was a trial.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q. Based on your years of experience, would
21 you say that the Federal Bureau of Investigation
22 is the most affective gatherer of investigative
0133
1 information in the United States?
2 A. Aside from our company?
3 Q. Aside from your company. I know you've
4 been described as the private CIA. I didn't ask
5 you about the CIA.
6 A. I'd say they are very effective. I
7 wouldn't say they are the most affective because
8 I think there are other agencies that are
9 deserving of plaudits for their being effective
10 in obtaining evidence used for criminal
11 prosecutions. Well, the Intelligence Division of
12 the IRS was very creative and the Postal
13 Inspectors were also very creative. So I
14 wouldn't limit it to just the Bureau, but the
15 Bureau is very good.
16 Q. Based on your many years of experience,
17 which agency is more affective than others, do
18 you think?
19 A. Well, I -- there were good agents in
20 every division that I worked with. There were
21 some not so good agents in every division that I
22 worked with. And I would -- I really don't have
0134
1 an opinion as to which was the overall best
2 because if you got a good agent, you've got a
3 great case and you've got a lot of help. If you
4 got an agent that was less inspired, regardless
5 of the agency, then the results may not be as
6 affective.
7 Q. Now Investigative Group, Inc., that's
8 your company, correct? And what year did you
9 find it?
10 You have to answer because it's not just
11 video. It's also recorded by the court reporter.
12 A. Oh, what year did I find it?
13 Q. Founded?
14 A. Founded, 1984.
15 Q. We'll call it IGI. We've been referring
16 to it that way. Is that the way it's also
17 referred to sometimes?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. You said that IGI is more affective than
20 the FBI. How is that so?
21 A. I was --
22 MR. HANSEN: Objection,
0135
1 mischaracterization.
2 THE WITNESS: I was making a joke about
3 us. We're very proud of our work product. We
4 have people from the FBI, the DEA, former
5 investigative reporters, forensic accountants,
6 lawyers, and I think we have a very affective
7 team. And I think even Larry and Dick Swensen
8 would think that we produce a good product. But
9 I would wouldn't want to compare us to the FBI.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q. What's the total size of IGI currently in
12 terms of direct employees?
13 A. I think there was roughly 92 or 3
14 employees in eight offices. That includes
15 database researchers.
16 Q. Roughly speaking, what's your payroll?
17 A. 92 people.
18 Q. I'm talking about in dollars.
19 MR. HANSEN: To the extent that's
20 confidential, proprietary business information
21 not publicly available, I instruct you not to
22 answer.
0136
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q. Just roughly speaking.
3 A. I hate to admit it, but I can't answer
4 that question. You'd have to call my CFO.
5 Q. Chief financial officer?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Who is that?
8 A. Tom Wendell.
9 Q. Wendell, W E N D L E?
10 A. D E L L.
11 Q. Does your firm employ subcontractors?
12 A. Yes, it does.
13 Q. How many subcontractors?
14 A. Oh, God, a lot.
15 Q. Are these companies or individuals?
16 A. Both.
17 Q. Roughly speaking, how many subcontractors
18 in terms of companies are employed?
19 A. I don't have the slightest idea.
20 Q. Roughly speaking. In the tens, hundreds?
21 A. I mean, we have subcontractors in foreign
22 countries, in states. I just -- it would be
0137
1 complete speculation. It would not be even close
2 to accurate. The international unit would have
3 its own subcontractors, the domestic unit would
4 have its subcontractors, and I don't -- I
5 couldn't begin to tell you how that would break
6 out.
7 Q. During the time that you worked in the
8 Justice Department, Civil Right's Division, and
9 then at the U.S. Attorney's Office, did you ever
10 have an opportunity to see an FBI background
11 file?
12 A. A background file on a target?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. A target of the investigation?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. Yes, I think -- I think I probably did.
17 Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to see a
18 background file on an employee of the Justice
19 Department?
20 MS. GILES: Objection to "background
21 file." Could you define that term?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: A file dealing with an
0138
1 individual's background.
2 MS. GILES: On any agency?
3 MR. KLAYMAN: My question was clear.
4 You'll have an opportunity to cross examine,
5 Ms. --
6 THE WITNESS: The only background
7 information I remember seeing --
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Giles.
9 THE WITNESS: -- was information relating
10 to targets of our investigation, mostly organized
11 crime members. It would include --
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q. And you worked with those --
14 A. It would include identification of
15 associates of organized crime members, their
16 activities, their proprietary holdings,
17 information from informants as to what illegal
18 acts they might have been engaged in, what night
19 clubs and, you know, coffee houses they
20 frequented, who their drivers were, what their
21 prior records were.
22 Q. Where were those files stored generally
0139
1 speaking?
2 A. In -- that I saw?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. In my office, in my files.
5 Q. In secured files?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you had a top secret clearance during
8 these jobs?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. They weren't to be disseminated outside
11 of --
12 A. Absolutely not.
13 Q. -- the Civil Right's Division and the
14 U.S. Attorney's Office?
15 A. Absolutely not.
16 Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to see a
17 background file of a Justice Department employee
18 when you worked at the Civil Right's Division,
19 the U.S. Attorney's Office?
20 MS. GILES: Continuing objection to the
21 term "background file" as vague and ambiguous.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
0140
1 Q. You can respond.
2 A. I don't believe so.
3 Q. You're not sure?
4 MR. HANSEN: Mischaracterization.
5 Objection.
6 THE WITNESS: If you're saying a
7 background file is the result of a Bureau
8 preemployment background file?
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q. Among other things.
11 A. Well --
12 Q. Let's start with that.
13 A. No, I don't think I ever saw one.
14 Q. During the time that you worked in the
15 Civil Right's Division and in the U.S. Attorney's
16 Office, did you ever request background files of
17 Federal Government employees?
18 A. The only case I could think of in
19 response to that was an investigation we did of
20 IRS audit agents who we believed or had been told
21 by the IRS were suspected of receiving gratuities
22 in exchange for treating their tax returns of
0141
1 certain companies in a way inappropriately. And
2 we may have called for the background files on
3 them to see who their supervisors were and that
4 kind of thing and also was there any significant
5 change in their level of living versus their
6 apparent income. I don't remember a specific
7 file being seen in that case, but I wouldn't be
8 surprised if there was one.
9 Q. Okay. I'm not going to -- I'm just
10 asking you generally. I'm not asking you
11 specific names, but do you remember the names of
12 the people whose files were requested?
13 A. No, this was a long time ago.
14 Q. Tell us generically what type of
15 information was contained in those files. Just
16 generically, not anything that's confidential.
17 A. Well, you're stretching my memory. Well,
18 there would be, of course, CV information.
19 Q. You mean curriculum vitae?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Resume?
22 A. Yes. And then there would be information
0142
1 relating to assignments and supervisor's ratings
2 and compensation and any disciplinary actions or
3 sanctions that had been taken.
4 Q. And there was also information with
5 regard to the security check, was there not, of
6 that employee when they became an employee
7 leading up to that point?
8 MR. HANSEN: Objection,
9 mischaracterization.
10 THE WITNESS: I can't remember.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q. Based on your general experience, isn't
13 it the case that in FBI files dealing with
14 government employees that they do have
15 information about the security check, the
16 interviews that were conducted before that person
17 became an employee?
18 A. These files were IRS files. These files
19 were prepared by the IRS.
20 Q. Right. Now I'm asking a different
21 question.
22 A. Okay.
0143
1 Q. With regard to Justice Department files,
2 do they not have information about the person's
3 interview process before they became an employee?
4 MR. HANSEN: Objection, no foundation.
5 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I didn't
6 understand the question. Did they have
7 information about their interview files?
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q. Well, for instance, you were -- you had a
10 security clearance. FBI agents went out and
11 interviewed people that knew you. Obviously they
12 recorded that information.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Isn't that type of information included
15 in these types of files?
16 MS. GILES: Which types of files are we
17 discussing?
18 MR. KLAYMAN: Justice Department files.
19 Based on your experience.
20 MS. GILES: Any subdivision of the
21 Department of Justice?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Based on your experience.
0144
1 You'll get to ask your questions,
2 Ms. Giles.
3 THE WITNESS: I can't -- I don't think I
4 can answer that question because I never saw -- I
5 don't believe I ever saw a -- is it okay? I
6 don't believe --
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q. Go ahead and respond, and we'll take a
9 break.
10 A. I don't believe I ever saw that kind of
11 background file, that is to say a file that
12 contained an FBI preemployment investigation.
13 Q. Did you see any files that contained FBI
14 security checks when they do security
15 investigations?
16 A. I don't believe so.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: We can change the tape now.
18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off video
19 record at 12:39.
20 (Discussion off the record.)
21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
22 record at 12:41.
0145
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q. Mr. Lenzner, in the course of your
3 considerable career as a lawyer and as an
4 investigator, have you learned what is contained
5 in an FBI file dealing with Justice Department
6 employees?
7 MR. HANSEN: Objection, calls for
8 speculation.
9 THE WITNESS: I said I don't believe I've
10 ever seen such a file, and I could only assume
11 from my own experience of being investigated that
12 they talked -- that it contains interviews with
13 neighbors, with previous employers, with
14 educational institutions, but that's an
15 assumption I'm making based on ad hoc
16 conversations I had in 1964 when I was applying
17 for a job.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q. Information which wouldn't necessarily be
20 true but would just record the interviews?
21 A. I wouldn't know whether it was accurate
22 or not accurate.
0146
1 Q. Have you ever seen any type of Federal
2 Government employee file regardless of the
3 agency?
4 MS. GILES: Objection, vague and
5 ambiguous.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q. You can respond.
8 MR. HANSEN: Objection, asked and
9 answered.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q. Other than the individuals at the IRS
12 that we talked about earlier.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When was that?
15 A. 1969.
16 Q. And what was the context of that?
17 A. I was appointed special assistant to the
18 director of the Office of Economic Opportunity,
19 who was Donald Rumsfeld, and we had a flood of --
20 this was just after President Nixon was elected,
21 and we had a flood of applications, not
22 surprisingly, and they came in the form of all
0147
1 kinds -- as you imagine, all kinds of forms of
2 letters, but we did have -- we did see, as I
3 recall, government files reflecting applications
4 like that. And then Don made me -- after the
5 initial phase where we got the senior level
6 staffed out, he appointed me director of the
7 Office of Legal Services. So I had my own staff
8 appointments, and I saw, on occasion, background
9 files, including, I think -- I'm not sure if they
10 were Bureau or whether OEO had its own
11 investigators, but there was the kind of
12 information that you and I are talking about in
13 those files.
14 Q. And, generically speaking, what kind of
15 information was in there?
16 A. I mean, I think the kind that we've
17 talked about before plus -- in one particular
18 case I remember derogatory comments obtained from
19 a neighbor, and it was specifically brought to my
20 attention because it was a holdover employee from
21 the -- who was the President before Nixon?
22 Carter?
0148
1 MR. HANSEN: No.
2 THE WITNESS: Johnson. From the Johnson
3 era. And there was derogatory information from a
4 neighbor, and I was asked to terminate that
5 employee based on that information. And that was
6 contained in the kind of file you're asking
7 about.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q. Who gathered the information that was
10 contained in the file? Was there a law
11 enforcement agency that was assigned to do that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Which agency?
14 A. It was somebody under the Justice
15 Department because the file was delivered to me
16 by a senior level employee of the Justice
17 Department, a newly appointed Nixon appointee.
18 Q. Was it in the Federal Bureau of
19 Investigation?
20 A. I believe it was. I wouldn't want to
21 swear absolutely, but I think it must have been.
22 But -- I'm trying to remember if it was a sea --
0149
1 you know, the FBI seal or not, and I just can't
2 remember.
3 Q. During that period of time when you
4 worked with Donald Rumsfeld, it became apparent
5 to you, did it not, that that type of information
6 contained in these files if disclosed could be
7 very harmful to those individuals?
8 A. In that particular case the answer is,
9 yes, absolutely.
10 Q. Have you ever had any involvement with
11 regard to the recent nomination process of
12 Anthony Lake as CIA director, any involvement of
13 any kind in the investigative capacity?
14 MR. HANSEN: Let me just object on the
15 grounds previously stated and state that to the
16 extent Mr. Klayman asks you about things you
17 haven't done, that's going to inevitably lead to
18 questions about what you have done.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not particularly
20 interested in Anthony Lake. I'm trying to lay a
21 foundation for further questions.
22 MR. HANSEN: Well, so far the last
0150
1 half-hour has been using him as an expert for
2 some purpose not entirely clear to me in your
3 case, and he's not being paid for that, and I
4 think Mr. Lenzner can't testify about what he has
5 or hasn't done as an investigator without
6 breaching confidentiality under the
7 attorney-client, work product, and --
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Mr. Hansen, with all due
9 respect, I don't know what you just said.
10 MR. HANSEN: Should I repeat it?
11 MR. KLAYMAN: No, please don't.
12 MR. HANSEN: Well, if there's any --
13 MR. KLAYMAN: You can't let him answer
14 the question?
15 MR. HANSEN: No, I'm not going to let him
16 answer the question if it would call for
17 disclosure of those materials.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q. Were you ever retained for any matter
20 dealing with Anthony Lake's nomination process as
21 CIA director?
22 Are you instructing him not to answer?