0301
1 play that part of this deposition.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: How did you -- is there
3 anything else you want to say to Geraldo at this
4 time?
5 MR. HANSEN: Well, I'm sure he's standing
6 outside waiting for his videotapes. Mr. Klayman,
7 I think that's also outrageous and inappropriate
8 and misconduct by a lawyer and you should be
9 ashamed of that misconduct.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Now you want to say
11 anything bad about me?
12 MR. HANSEN: No, I don't want to say
13 anything bad about you, Mr. Klayman.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. Thank you.
15 Let's continue on. I really don't want to
16 engage in colloquy with you. I want to ask
17 questions.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q. How did you get to know Sey Hersh?
20 A. I got to know Sey Hersh as a neighbor. I
21 played tennis against him in Whitham and that
22 goes back 10 or 15 years, and we see each other0302
1 on the tennis court occasionally. We've gone to
2 basketball games together, and he frequently
3 calls up and tells me the latest. When he was
4 writing this book, he would call me up, wait
5 until you hear what I've gone on this thing and
6 that thing.
7 Q. Did he ever consult with you about FBI
8 procedures and FBI files in writing the book?
9 A. No.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Now you have your answer,
11 Mr. Hansen, as to why it's relevant.
12 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, if you really
13 think I'm supposed to be impressed with that
14 answer as relevance, it's really --
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you know, I'm just
16 trying to avoid these kinds of attacks. I think
17 they're unnecessary.
18 MR. HANSEN: It's not an attack. I just
19 asked for a foundation, Mr. Klayman. If you're
20 telling me that's the foundation, I reiterate my
21 comment because that's no foundation.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I'm asking you not to
0303
1 waist my time please.
2 MR. HANSEN: You directed a question --
3 MR. KLAYMAN: If you want to vent, please
4 go out of the conference room.
5 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, I didn't speak
6 until you spoke to me and told me you had just
7 given a foundation. I don't think that's a
8 foundation.
9 Please go ahead and ask your next
10 question.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Thank you. Thank you.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q. Are you aware that George Stephanopoulos
14 made a statement on ABC this week with
15 Sam Donaldson and Cokie Roberts, the latter of
16 which you know quite well, and said that
17 White House allies were whispering about an
18 Ellen Rometsch strategy?
19 A. I didn't see it, but I read it in the
20 transcript that I think was appended to the
21 subpoena. I think where I -- isn't there --
22 MS. ELWOOD: Uh-huh.
0304
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q. Have you read a transcript of
3 George Stephanopoulos' deposition in this case?
4 A. I was shown excerpts of part of his
5 deposition that referred to me.
6 Q. When were you shown that?
7 A. This morning.
8 Q. Who showed that to you?
9 A. Mr. Hansen.
10 Q. Do you know how Mr. Hansen got a copy of
11 Mr. Stephanopoulos' deposition?
12 A. I have no idea.
13 Q. Did you ask him?
14 A. No.
15 MR. HANSEN: Objection to any
16 attorney-client communications.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q. Have you reviewed a transcript of the
19 deposition of Paul Begala?
20 A. Parts of it.
21 Q. Who gave you that?
22 A. My counsel.
0305
1 Q. When did you review that?
2 A. Last night.
3 MR. GAFFNEY: The court reporter would
4 like to get a cup of coffee.
5 (Discussion off the record.)
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q. I'll show you what I'll ask the court
8 reporter to mark as Exhibit 8.
9 (Deposition Exhibit Number 8 was marked
10 for identification.)
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q. This is a transcript of
13 Mr. Stephanopoulos' appearance on ABC news on
14 February 8, 1998, "This Week With Sam Donaldson
15 and Cokie Roberts." Turning to Page 2 of that
16 transcript --
17 MR. HANSEN: Do you want him to review
18 the whole transcript before answering your
19 questions, Mr. Klayman, or do you just the first
20 excerpt?
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. No, just read the first three pages.
0306
1 Read the first three pages.
2 MR. HANSEN: That's the first three
3 pages.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q. Have you read it?
6 MR. HANSEN: The first three pages.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q. Mr. Lenzner?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Turn to Page 2, reading the middle of the
11 page, Sam Donaldson: We know what the White
12 House tactics are. I mean, they've been almost
13 open about it. Attack the press and perhaps with
14 good reason. Attack the Independent Counsel,
15 perhaps for some good reason. And stonewall in
16 the central issue which is the President of the
17 United States. And if he has nothing to hide,
18 why is he hiding.
19 George Stephanopoulos: I agree with that
20 and there's a different long-term strategy which
21 I think would be far more explosive. White House
22 allies are already starting to whisper about what
0307
1 I'll call the Ellen Rometsch strategy.
2 Sam Donaldson: I remember her.
3 George Stephanopoulos: You remember her.
4 Sam Donaldson: Oh, yes.
5 George Stephanopoulos: She was a
6 girlfriend of John F. Kennedy who also happened
7 to be an East German spy, and Robert Kennedy was
8 charged with getting her out of the country and
9 also getting J. Edgar Hoover to go to the
10 Congress and say don't you investigate this
11 because if you do, we're going to open up
12 everybody's closets. And I think that in the
13 long run they have a deterrent strategy on
14 getting a lot of --
15 George Will: Monica Lewinsky is an East
16 German spy?
17 Sam Donaldson: No, but that's a good
18 point. Are you suggesting for a moment that what
19 they're beginning to say is that if you
20 investigate this too much we'll put all your
21 dirty linen right on the table, every member of
22 the Senate, every member of the press corps.
0308
1 George Stephanopoulos: Absolutely. The
2 President said he'd never resign and I think some
3 around him are willing to take everybody down
4 with him.
5 Does that refresh your recollection as to
6 whether you saw that telecast of
7 George Stephanopoulos on ABC?
8 MR. HANSEN: Objection to the form. I
9 don't think he's testified -- go ahead and answer
10 the question.
11 THE WITNESS: I'm pretty certain I didn't
12 see that.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q. Did you hear about it after that?
15 A. I read it about.
16 Q. Where did you read about it? In the
17 newspaper?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. It's pretty big news when
20 Mr. Stephanopoulos made that statement, correct?
21 MR. HANSEN: Objection to the form.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
0309
1 Q. Correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Because what it, basically, reflects is
4 that the White House is prepared to destroy
5 adversaries with the same strategy that
6 J. Edgar Hoover used in the Ellen Rometsch
7 affair, correct?
8 MS. GILES: Objection.
9 MR. HANSEN: Objection to the form of the
10 question. Mischaracterization, misleading.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q. You can respond. Is that how you took
13 it?
14 A. I had -- I have no idea whether it
15 factually accurate or not factually accurate, and
16 I, frankly, probably didn't think about it for
17 more than two seconds.
18 Q. I didn't ask you whether it was factually
19 accurate. But, in and of itself, it reflects
20 based upon your understanding that FBI files are
21 going to be used to destroy adversaries of the
22 Clinton White House, correct?
0310
1 MS. GILES: Objection.
2 MR. HANSEN: Objection,
3 mischaracterization, argumentative.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q. You can respond.
6 A. I think it is relevant as to whether or
7 not the statements are accurate or not accurate,
8 and, as an investigator and a lawyer, I'd like to
9 know whether I'd been told information that's
10 accurate and correct or not accurate and correct
11 so I can make my own determination. So I don't
12 know if that's accurate or correct or not.
13 Q. On its face though, if it's true, it
14 would reflect the use of FBI files like
15 J. Edgar Hoover used to destroy or to coerce
16 adversaries, correct?
17 MR. HANSEN: Objection,
18 mischaracterization. Objection, assume a fact
19 not in evidence.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q. You can respond.
22 A. I have no idea whether it contemplated
0311
1 the use of FBI files or other information. I
2 have no idea. I have no idea what they're
3 talking about here.
4 Q. You took it that way, did you not?
5 A. No, I did not take it that way.
6 Q. Based on the press reports, the press
7 reports took it that way, did they not?
8 MR. HANSEN: Objection to the form.
9 Objection to how the press took something.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q. Based upon what you read.
12 MR. HANSEN: Objection, again.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q. You can respond.
15 A. I don't recall with any specificity what
16 I read. And I have to tell you, having been
17 through both press coverage of recent weeks as
18 well as the press coverage of our representation
19 of Brown & Williamson, I have a presumption that
20 not everything I read in the newspapers and
21 magazines is necessarily correct.
22 Q. How do you know that what
0312
1 Mr. Stephanopoulos said is not accurate?
2 MR. HANSEN: Objection to the form.
3 Mischaracterizes testimony.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't know if it's
5 accurate or inaccurate.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q. You have no reason to disbelieve
8 Mr. Stephanopoulos, do you?
9 MR. HANSEN: Objection to form.
10 THE WITNESS: I met Mr. Stephanopoulos
11 briefly once. My daughter likes him a lot, and,
12 more than that, I can't say.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q. Have you ever had conversations with
15 Ann Lewis of the White House?
16 A. Ever?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. I, years ago, was at a party with her
19 that was thrown in honor of her brother.
20 Q. Barney Frank?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Have you talked to her within the last
0313
1 four months?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Have you had any conversations with
4 Mike McCurry in the last five months?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Press secretary of the White House?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Have you had any conversations with
9 anyone at the White House about the matters that
10 Mr. Stephanopoulos has just described on "This
11 Week" as just read to you?
12 A. You mean current employees at the
13 White House?
14 Q. Correct.
15 A. I can't think of a single person at the
16 White House who would respond to my phone call
17 much less talk to me about this, but I'll -- so
18 that would be my answer. The answer is no.
19 Q. Why wouldn't they respond to your phone
20 call?
21 A. Because they don't know me.
22 Q. Have you ever discussed
0314
1 Mr. Stephanopoulos' statement with anyone other
2 than your lawyer, the one I just read to you?
3 A. I don't think so unless it came up in
4 conversation at dinner with my wife.
5 Q. What did your wife ask you at dinner?
6 A. I said if it came up. If it came up at
7 dinner, that's when it would have come up. Other
8 than my conversation with Mr. Hansen, it wouldn't
9 have come up unless it came up in a social
10 occasion talking with my wife about something
11 that happened because, of course, we are friends
12 of Cokie's. And she may have watched the show
13 for all I know.
14 Q. Did Cokie Roberts ever ask you about what
15 George Stephanopoulos meant in this statement
16 that I just read to you?
17 A. Absolutely not.
18 Q. Has anyone ever asked you that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know James Carville?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Have you ever met him?
0315
1 A. I met him once.
2 Q. When was that?
3 A. I met him in a restaurant a couple of
4 weeks ago at The Palm. I said hello to him, and
5 I don't think he even recognized me.
6 Q. You didn't have lunch with him?
7 A. No, no, no. I was at a separate table.
8 Q. You saw him and you went -- did you go by
9 and introduce yourself?
10 A. Yeah, I just -- no, I just said, Hi.
11 Q. Who was he sitting with?
12 A. He was sitting with a guy that looked
13 like Paul Begala, and I don't know who the third
14 person was.
15 Q. This was how many weeks ago?
16 A. Well, I could get that out of our
17 records, but three or four weeks ago.
18 Q. You kept a record of this meeting between
19 Carville and Begala?
20 A. No, there would be an expense record for
21 my lunch. I only go to The Palm once every
22 couple of months and so we could tie it down that
0316
1 way. Assuming I paid. I may not have paid
2 because I was with somebody else.
3 Q. Who were you with?
4 A. I was with my former law partner,
5 Harry Huge.
6 Q. Did you discuss anything dealing with FBI
7 files when you went over and said hello to
8 Mr. Carville?
9 A. I didn't go over and say hello. I just
10 waived to him.
11 Q. You just waived to him?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. But you never met him so how would he
14 know who was waiving at him? What was the point?
15 A. Well, Harry, for one thing, is well known
16 at The Palm. In fact, his portrait is up on the
17 wall. And, second of all, I thought Carville
18 might have recognized me.
19 Q. Why would that be the case?
20 A. Well, because my picture has been in the
21 press from the -- I testified last summer before
22 the Senate, and there was a lot of coverage on
0317
1 that.
2 Q. And more than Mr. Carville might
3 recognize you from that, correct? A lot of
4 people walking down the street would recognize
5 you, correct?
6 MR. HANSEN: Objection to the form of the
7 question.
8 THE WITNESS: I've actually been
9 surprised at how many people have come up to me
10 and wished me well lately.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q. So do you waive at everybody down the
13 street?
14 A. I say hello to them if --
15 MR. HANSEN: Objection.
16 THE WITNESS: I say hello to them if they
17 stop me on the street.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q. Why did you waive at Mr. Carville? You
20 know him, don't you?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. Have you had any conversations about
0318
1 George Stephanopoulos' statement about this
2 Ellen Rometsch strategy with anyone at Williams &
3 Connolly?
4 MR. HANSEN: Objection, and privilege
5 instruction as previously given.
6 THE WITNESS: I accept instruction. I
7 will not answer that question.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q. Have you discussed George Stephanopoulos'
11 statement about Ellen Rometsch with
12 David Kendall?
13 MR. HANSEN: Same objection.
14 THE WITNESS: Same answer.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q. Have you discussed George Stephanopoulos'
18 statement about Ellen Rometsch with Paul Gaffney?
19 A. I'm sorry, I apologize. Same answer.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. Are you telling me that you will not
0319
1 answer this question because your discussion of
2 Ellen Rometsch occurred in the context of your
3 being retained by Williams & Connolly?
4 MR. HANSEN: Objection, assumes a fact
5 not in evidence. Mr. Klayman, if you would like
6 my response, I'll be happy to give it to you.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I want it from the
8 witness.
9 MR. HANSEN: Well, you're not going to
10 get it from the witness because the objection is
11 mine to make and then the witness --
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q. You can respond.
14 MR. HANSEN: Sorry. Don't talk over me,
15 Mr. Klayman. I'm entitled to make my objection.
16 His conversations with clients who retain him as
17 an attorney, as an investigator, are privileged.
18 Similarly they are proprietary information of his
19 firm, whether he did or did not speak on that
20 subject. Your question assumes a fact not in
21 evidence, but if such conversation occurred, it
22 would have to be within the confines of a
0320
1 privileged relationship. So I am instructing him
2 not to answer, and I am asking that you not try
3 and bulldoze over the privilege because that
4 itself is improper conduct under Rule 30 and Rule
5 45.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: You've insulted me on a
7 number occasions in this deposition and you have
8 called me all kinds of names.
9 MR. HANSEN: I haven't said a single --
10 MR. KLAYMAN: You've spewn forth lots of
11 things that aren't on the record with this case.
12 I would urge you to consult with the rules of
13 professional responsibility about appropriate
14 conduct towards other counsel, Mr. Hansen.
15 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, I haven't made
16 a single insult of you throughout a long and very
17 trying deposition.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll let the record speak
19 for itself. I suggest you consult with bar
20 rules.
21 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, I really do
22 request that you do something else for us and
0321
1 continue your questioning if you have any
2 questions relevant to this case. I'm not trying
3 to engage you in colloquy. I'm just trying to
4 make objections as I'm required to do under the
5 rule. I don't want to bait you and I don't want
6 to get into a fight with you. Please ask
7 Mr. Lenzner whatever questions you have on this
8 case, and let's get this over with.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q. Mr. Lenzner, did you consult with anyone
11 at Williams & Connolly including David Kendall
12 and Paul Gaffney about Ellen Rometsch in the
13 context of your employment relationship with
14 them?
15 MR. HANSEN: Continuation privileged
16 instruction as previously given. Instruction not
17 to answer to the extent it would disclose
18 privileged communications.
19 THE WITNESS: Accepted.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. Now the Ellen Rometsch strategy, let's
0322
1 define it this way. The Ellen rometsch strategy
2 would be the use of FBI files illegally. It
3 would be a crime. That's the definition for it.
4 MS. GILES: Objection, vague and
5 ambiguous.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q. I'm defining the definition, and I'm
8 going to ask you a question. Let me ask you this
9 question. Would the use of FBI files against
10 adversaries of the Clinton Administration based
11 on your considerable experience be legal?
12 MR. HANSEN: Objection as to calls for a
13 fact not in evidence, mischaracterized the prior
14 testimony. Also Rule 45, you're asking him as an
15 expert, where he's not been retained. Subject to
16 those, you can answer.
17 THE WITNESS: Can I confer for just a
18 second?
19 (Discussion off the record.)
20 THE WITNESS: I'd like to just say --
21 make one statement. Without admitting that this
22 request was or was not made to me that from my
0323
1 stand point if such a request was made, I would
2 refuse to comply with it.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q. I never asked you a question on that.
5 MR. HANSEN: Well, I'm not sure that's
6 correct, Mr. Klayman, but you can ask the next
7 question.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q. My question was whether or not the use of
10 FBI files by allies of the Clinton White House
11 based on your experience would be legal or
12 illegal?
13 MR. HANSEN: Calls for legal conclusion,
14 calls for speculation, and Rule 45 as previously
15 objected. You can answer.
16 THE WITNESS: I would have to look at the
17 Title 18 of the U.S. code to determine whether or
18 not there was some specific act that such an act
19 would violate, but whether it violated it or not,
20 my company would never engage in such activity.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. Are you telling me that someone asked you
0324
1 to do this and you refused?
2 MR. HANSEN: Objection, misstatement of
3 prior testimony. Objection, argumentative.
4 Objection, Mr. Lenzner's previous answer speaks
5 for itself.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q. Are you going to answer that?
8 A. I think I answered it earlier, sir, when
9 I said that I wasn't saying that this request had
10 been made to me or had not been made to me. What
11 I said was, if any client, any client, made a
12 request that we felt was inappropriate or
13 involved the misuse of information, we would not
14 comply with it.
15 Q. Was this request made of you?
16 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, Mr. Lenzner has
17 answered your question. I am going to instruct
18 him that he cannot disclose -- as much as he
19 would like to disclose, he cannot disclose with
20 you what was or was not said to him by his
21 clients without having a waiver of the privileges
22 involved, which are not his to waive. So your
0325
1 question is unfair, and I would ask that you stop
2 asking questions of clearly privileged material
3 and instruct Mr. Lenzner not to answer on that
4 basis.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q. For the record, if that request was made,
8 it would clearly be illegal, it would be not
9 entitled to any protection under any privilege.
10 Will you now answer the question, Mr. Lenzner?
11 MR. HANSEN: Are you testifying,
12 Mr. Klayman, or are you just giving your
13 commentary here?
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q. Will you now answer, Mr. Lenzner?
16 MR. HANSEN: Objection. Mr. Lenzner, you
17 have previously been instructed with regard to
18 privileges. If you have anything to add to your
19 prior answer wholly apart from any privileged
20 information, you can do so.
21 THE WITNESS: I have nothing to add.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
0326
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q. At your firm, IGI, do you record Sunday
3 morning talk shows or do you get copies of
4 transcripts or videotapes of Sunday morning talk
5 shows in the course of your duties?
6 A. Well, we don't record them as a matter of
7 course, and we would only ask for transcripts if
8 it was relevant to a matter that was pending in
9 one of our offices and had some relevancy to a
10 matter that we were engaged in.
11 Q. Did you record this transmission on ABC
12 this week on February 8th?
13 A. This? Did we --
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Did we record it on videotape?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. As far as I know, we did not.
18 Q. Did you get a transcript of it before
19 today?
20 MR. HANSEN: Objection, asked and
21 answered. He's already testified the appended
22 portion of the transcript to the subpoena you
0327
1 served on him.
2 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
3 Q. You can respond.
4 A. That's -- that's the only transcript I
5 saw.
6 Q. Has anyone from the White House called
7 you in the last month, from the White House
8 proper?
9 MR. HANSEN: You can answer yes or no.
10 THE WITNESS: I'm just trying to be
11 careful, think it through. No.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q. Have you called anybody in the
14 White House in the last month? And I define that
15 as the entire Executive Office of the President.
16 MR. HANSEN: You can answer yes or no.
17 THE WITNESS: I hate to appear -- I hate
18 to appear not so knowledgeable, but can you
19 define -- what is the Executive Office of the
20 Presidency? What does it include? It includes
21 the White House, the EOB. Anything else?
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
0328
1 Q. The EOB, Executive Office Building?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The new and the old?
4 A. Yeah. That's it? That's it?
5 Q. Anybody call you from --
6 A. No.
7 Q. Have you called anybody in those
8 entities?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Have you spoken with Mickey Cantor in the
11 last month?
12 MR. HANSEN: You can answer yes or no.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q. How many times?
16 MR. HANSEN: Let me just instruct you as
17 previously with respect to privilege. If you can
18 answer the question without disclosing privileges
19 subject to my prior objections, do so. If you
20 cannot, I instruct you not to answer.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did speak to
22 Mickey Cantor recently.
0329
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q. Did you talk to him about a professional
3 matter or was it purely a personal call?
4 A. It was purely social. We, actually, met
5 at the new restaurant Greenwoods of Cleveland
6 Park, which is quite excellent. I recommend it
7 to everybody.
8 Q. But you have talked to him about
9 professional matters in the last several months,
10 have you not?
11 A. I think under my instructions, I cannot
12 respond to that question, and I believe -- I
13 think it was asked some time ago and I think I
14 answered it exactly the same way.
15 Q. Were you aware that The Washington Post
16 recently reported that while Mr. Cantor was on
17 the phone being interviewed you called him?
18 A. I read that article.
19 Q. Is that accurate?
20 MR. HANSEN: Objection.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. That report?
0330
1 A. Well, I wasn't in his house at the time,
2 so I don't know what was heard.
3 Q. Was the reporter reported to be in his
4 house?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Did you ever say to Mr. Cantor, why did
7 you do that?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You weren't upset that it turned out that
10 the reporter overheard your call to him?
11 A. Not a bit.
12 Q. Have you ever heard of a private
13 investigator by the name of Palladino?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What's his first name?
16 A. I want to say Jack, but I'm not certain
17 about that.
18 Q. Jack. Have you ever worked with him?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Have you ever met him?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Are you aware of his having done work for
0331
1 people related to the Clinton campaign in 1992?
2 MR. HANSEN: Objection to the form of the
3 question as vague and ambiguous.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q. You can respond.
6 A. I remember reading some news articles
7 that referred to him with regard to that, but I
8 have no firsthand knowledge of that.
9 Q. Did you have any involvement in an
10 investigatory capacity in the 1992 presidential
11 campaign?
12 MR. HANSEN: Continuing privilege
13 instruction as previously stated.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q. You can respond.
16 A. I believe that would impinge on the
17 attorney-client privilege, work product, and the
18 other objections that my client -- my lawyer has
19 set forth.
20 Q. Were you hired to investigate the women
21 who were reported to have affairs with then
22 Governor Clinton?
0332
1 MR. HANSEN: Continuing privilege
2 objection, harassment in questioning, no
3 foundation. Same instruction.
4 BY THE WITNESS:
5 Q. You can respond.
6 A. Same answer.
7 Q. Okay. In conjunction with your work by
8 or on behalf of the Clinton Administration as
9 reported through William & Connolly and Skadden,
10 Arps, have you ever reviewed any information that
11 was generated by or published by the Federal
12 Bureau of Investigation?
13 MR. HANSEN: Objection, prior privilege
14 instruction --
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q. Public information?
17 MR. HANSEN: As to what he did in his
18 capacity as an attorney, as an investigator, and
19 in his business is proprietary. But you've
20 previously asked him about FBI material so it's
21 asked and answered, and he's told you with
22 respect to FBI files, he hasn't. And that's been
0333
1 answered 35 times.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
3 MR. HANSEN: And we'll certify that.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify what?
5 MR. HANSEN: The fact you've asked and
6 answered the same question 35 times, Mr. Klayman.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Have you counted that out,
8 Mr. Hansen?
9 MR. HANSEN: I would be willing to guess
10 that it's more than 35.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Don't speculate.
12 MR. HANSEN: Thirty-five is a comfortable
13 conservative estimate.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q. Are you aware of what Mr. Palladino is
16 reported to have done on behalf of
17 Governor Clinton and now President Clinton?
18 MR. HANSEN: Objection to the form of the
19 question.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q. You can respond.
22 A. I only -- anything I know about Palladino
0334
1 is what I read in the press, and I have no idea
2 whether it's accurate or not.
3 Q. And what have you read in the press?
4 A. References to his being employed during
5 the campaign to deal with allegations relating to
6 women. That's my recollection.
7 Q. What is Mr. Palladino's reputation in the
8 private detective industry?
9 A. I have no idea.
10 Q. Do you go to conventions where you meet
11 these kinds of people?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Generally private detectives don't go to
14 conventions?
15 A. There are --
16 Q. At least not to meet each other?
17 A. There are organizations, I'm sure, that
18 have those kinds of conferences. We're more
19 likely to be at the American Bar Association, the
20 White Collar Crime, the Civil Litigation Section.
21 We have people speak at panels at those different
22 locations, but I don't know what his --
0335
1 Mr. Palladino's reputation is, and I've never
2 discussed it with anybody.
3 Q. Do you have a license as a private
4 detective?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Where are you licensed?
7 A. D.C.
8 Q. How do you get a license? What do you
9 have to do?
10 A. You -- it varies from state-to-state.
11 But here in D.C. you have to go through a
12 background check and a fingerprint run. I think
13 there may be a test, too, but I'm not sure. I
14 think you only have to take that once.
15 Q. Are you licensed to carry a concealed
16 weapon?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Are any of the people on your staff?
19 MR. HANSEN: And that's germane to this
20 case in some way, Mr. Klayman?
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. You can respond.
0336
1 A. I, actually, don't know whether the
2 former law enforcement guys have permits or not.
3 They wouldn't be particularly useful in our line
4 of work, but I can't answer the question. I'd be
5 speculating.
6 Q. Have you ever heard of a Mr. Pellicano?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Who is Mr. Pellicano?
9 A. He's an investigator in the west coast.
10 I think he does a lot of celebrity
11 investigations.
12 Q. In Los Angeles?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. What's his first name?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Have you ever met him?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to whether
19 or not Pellicano and Palladino are involved in
20 the use of FBI files vis-a-vis Clinton
21 adversaries?
22 A. I have no idea.
0337
1 Q. One way or the other?
2 A. One way or the other.
3 Q. Now you testified previously that your
4 company, IGI, has various offices around the
5 world, correct?
6 A. Well, mostly in the United States, but we
7 have some foreign affiliations and a foreign
8 office in London.
9 Q. You own the office in London?
10 A. Lease it.
11 Q. But that's your firm that's there?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. It's not an affiliation?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And who is manning that office?
16 A. Cheryl, C H E R Y L, Travers,
17 T R A V E R S.
18 Q. Do you have any -- and what is her
19 background, Ms. Travers?
20 A. I think she's former U.S. customs that's
21 stated -- living with her husband in London.
22 Q. Do you have any affiliated companies in
0338
1 People's Republic of China?
2 A. No -- wait a minute. I speak too
3 quickly. When you say, "affiliated," you mean
4 some former affiliation as opposed to a
5 subcontractor?
6 Q. I take it you don't have an office that
7 you own there?
8 A. No.
9 Q. But do you work with a firm over there?
10 A. We probably do.
11 Q. Who do you work with?
12 A. I don't know name. It would -- the
13 International Operation would have that. What
14 happens is, if we get a call needing work in
15 Vietnam or Malaysia or Eastern Europe, we refer
16 that to the International Operation, and they'll
17 identify somebody for the case.
18 Q. In the course of your business at IGI do
19 you sometimes work with Interpol?
20 A. I -- sometimes we have given information
21 to Interpol and perhaps asked them for
22 information. I can't think of any examples of
0339
1 that.
2 Q. With regard to your employment by
3 Williams & Connolly, are you working on a
4 contingent basis?
5 THE WITNESS: Do I answer that?
6 MR. HANSEN: I don't believe that you can
7 testify, that would reveal confidential business
8 information or work product or attorney-client.
9 If you can do so without answering that, if you
10 can answer generally as to your compensation
11 practices whether they permit that are sort of
12 arrangement, you can do so.
13 THE WITNESS: We don't accept contingency
14 cases.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q. So someone is paying your fees?
17 A. I hope.
18 Q. You haven't been paid yet?
19 MR. HANSEN: Objection.
20 THE WITNESS: No comment.
21 MR. HANSEN: Objection, calls for
22 privileged information.
0340
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q. You're not going to answer that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Is there someone who has been designated
5 to pay your fees for your work on behalf of
6 Williams & Connolly?
7 A. I submit my bills to Williams & Connolly,
8 and I expect them to be paid. That's the only
9 information I have.
10 Q. And I take it none have been paid thus
11 far?
12 MR. HANSEN: Objection, confidential
13 privileged information. If you can answer --
14 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
15 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, if you continue
16 to run over my objections we will suspend the
17 deposition. I am entitled to make my objections.
18 You should not cut me off. You should not cut
19 the witness off. Please, I've asked you before.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: I thought you were done.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. Skadden, Arps. With regard to your
0341
1 relationship --
2 A. Same process.
3 Q. Do you bill Skadden, Arps?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Have they paid your fees?
6 MR. HANSEN: Objection.
7 THE WITNESS: I'm not going to respond to
8 that.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q. Is there someone standing behind Williams
12 & Connolly and Skadden, Arps that's going to pay
13 your fees?
14 MR. HANSEN: Objection to the form of the
15 question.
16 THE WITNESS: All I know is that we've
17 been instructed to send our statements and fees
18 to the two law firms, and that is no different
19 process than we've used in all kinds of matters
20 we've been retained on by both those law firms.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. Have you ever been retained by an entity,
0342
1 not asking you to identify the entity, where you
2 billed that entity but someone else has furnished
3 the money to pay you?
4 MR. HANSEN: You can answer, if you can
5 understand the question.
6 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm a little confused
7 about the question. Are you saying by somebody
8 that we are unaware of --
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q. Let me just put it in a simple language.
11 Let's say you're retained by entity A and you
12 bill entity A, but, in fact, the money is coming
13 from another source to pay your fees. Has that
14 ever occurred in the course of your practice as a
15 private investigator?
16 A. Sure.
17 Q. That's pretty frequent, isn't it?
18 A. Yes, subsidiary of apparent corporation.
19 A check may well come from parent corporation
20 even though we're doing the work for a subsidiary
21 corporation.
22 Q. Have you ever done work for an entity
0343
1 where you've billed that entity and someone who
2 was not related to that entity legally paid your
3 fees?
4 MR. HANSEN: Objection to form of the
5 question. Incomprehensible.
6 THE WITNESS: Have we ever been -- let me
7 see if I can repeat this question back so I can
8 understand it. Have we ever been paid by an
9 entity that was unrelated to the entity that
10 retained us in the first place?
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q. No. What I'm trying to say is, have you
13 ever been retained by, say, an entity -- we'll
14 call it entity A, and you've issued a bill to
15 that entity but someone else has come by, not
16 related legally, not a subsidiary, not an
17 affiliate, but an independent entity, and they've
18 covered the fees when entity A did not pay?
19 A. I can think of one case, actually, that
20 was in litigation because of that occurring, if I
21 understand your question correctly.
22 Q. Are any of your fees with regard to the
0344
1 work you're doing for Williams & Connolly and
2 Skadden & Arps on behalf of the Clinton
3 Administration being paid by a source in China?
4 MR. HANSEN: Objection to the form of the
5 question. Misstates prior testimony on behalf of
6 the White House. Asked and answered. If you
7 have anymore to add to your answer, you can go
8 ahead.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q. You can answer.
11 A. We submit our bills to the law firm just
12 like we submit most of our bills to law firms,
13 and, generally, we receive checks back on the
14 bank acts of the law firms. Sometimes we will
15 receive checks from the ultimate client if it's a
16 corporation --
17 Q. That's not responsive to my question.
18 Are you refusing to answer my question?
19 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, your question
20 misstated the evidence, is incomprehensible --
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. Is it contemplated --
0345
1 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, I have not
2 finished the objection.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I thought you did.
4 MR. HANSEN: The next time you do that,
5 Mr. Klayman, I'm going to ask that we suspend the
6 deposition. I'm entitled to make my objection.
7 May I make my objection?
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Make your objection. I
9 think it would be a good idea, Mr. Hansen --
10 perhaps it's too late to realize or at least to
11 research how this court handles suspending
12 depositions.
13 MR. HANSEN: Mr. Klayman, under Rule
14 30 -- perhaps I should read it to you since
15 you've asked. Under Rule 30 -- the rule
16 specifically is 30(d)(1) and (3) and let's just
17 read it since you've made a point of it. Under
18 30(d) it states that a party may instruct a
19 deponent not to answer only when necessary to
20 preserve a privilege to enforce a limitation
21 under evidence directed by the court or to
22 present a motion under paragraph three.
0346
1 Under paragraph three, since you've
2 inquired, it says, quote, "At any time during a
3 deposition on motion of a party or of the
4 deponent or upon showing the examination is being
5 conducted in bad faith or in such manner as
6 unreasonably to annoy, embarrass, or oppress the
7 deponent or party, the court in which the action
8 is pending or the court in which the deposition
9 was being taken may order the officer conducting
10 the examination to cease forth with or may limit
11 the scope and manner of the taking of the
12 deposition as provided in Rule 26(c)." The rule
13 provides expressly what I said, Mr. Klayman. I
14 would like to continue with my objections --
15 MR. KLAYMAN: I know the rule,
16 Mr. Hansen, but I have to be able to ask
17 questions and you have to be able to then
18 instruct your witness so we can put the questions
19 at issue, so I can pose them to the court.
20 MR. HANSEN: I agree.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q. If you allow me to do that, the question
0347
1 that I have is, Mr. Lenzner, is whether or not
2 with regard to your relationship with Williams &
3 Connolly and Skadden & Arps concerning the
4 Clinton Administration is contemplated that your
5 fees are going to be paid by a source in China.
6 MR. HANSEN: The objection, Mr. Klayman,
7 is you've just placed in your question, again,
8 the Clinton Administration as the client
9 supposedly, which is a misstatement of the prior
10 testimony of the witness, whether intentional or
11 unintentional. And I don't believe the question
12 should be answered in that form.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q. Would you please respond?
15 A. I have no information that supports that
16 statement.
17 Q. Same question with regard to possible
18 source of payment of your fees Lippo Bank or the
19 Riaydhi family?
20 MR. HANSEN: Do you have a good faith
21 basis for asking that question, Mr. Klayman?
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, I do.
0348
1 MR. HANSEN: I would like you at an
2 appropriate time to present to the court your
3 good faith basis for asking that question.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: I would be happy to.
5 Please answer it.
6 THE WITNESS: I have no information to
7 support that proposition.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q. No information or you're not answering
10 it?
11 A. No, I have no -- I just said, I have no
12 information to support that statement.
13 Q. Do you know who ultimately will pay your
14 fees, if anyone?
15 MR. HANSEN: Objection.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q. The source?
18 MR. HANSEN: Asked and answered.
19 THE WITNESS: The bills are rendered to
20 the law firms. I assume their ultimate client
21 will render payment. That's all I know, and
22 that's not unusual in our practice.
0349
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q. And who is their ultimate client?
3 A. Their ultimate client is this is a matter
4 related to the defensive matters related to the
5 President.
6 Q. So the ultimate client is the President?
7 A. That's my understanding of the statement
8 issued on February 24th.
9 MR. GAFFNEY: The court reporter needs to
10 change the disk.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you need to change it?
12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by. We are
13 going off video record.
14 (Pause in the proceedings.)
15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
16 record at 4:37.
17 MR. HANSEN: My standing objection to the
18 videography time.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: We've just taken 10 minutes
20 and you said you were going to stop it at 4:40.
21 MR. HANSEN: Well, we haven't taken 10
22 minutes, Mr. Klayman.
0350
1 MR. KLAYMAN: How long have we taken in
2 your view, Mr. Hansen?
3 MS. ELWOOD: Five minutes.
4 MR. HANSEN: Five minutes.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Did you count that?
6 MR. HANSEN: Yes.
7 MS. ELWOOD: I did.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: So now your cutoff point is
9 4:45?
10 MR. HANSEN: 4:50.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: 4:50. We're up to 4:50
12 now.
13 MR. HANSEN: We want to make sure that
14 we --
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, the record will speak
16 for itself.
17 MR. HANSEN: The record, actually, won't
18 because of the broken video camera time, so I'm
19 afraid we're going to have to rely on our own
20 watches.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, that's not the case.
22 It's been continuous. And you will be able to