301
1 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying he's
2 going to respond or not?
3 MR. BRAND: He's not going to
4 respond to that.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Is Mr. Terry Lenzner within the
8 definition you gave on ABC?
9 A I'm not going to respond it. I
10 responded --
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Is Mr. Lenzner within the
14 definition that you just gave her at the
15 deposition?
16 A Sure.
17 Q Is Mr. Palladino within the
18 definition that you gave on ABC?
19 A I'm not going to answer it.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Is Mr. Palladino within the
302
1 definition that you gave here during the
2 deposition?
3 A I don't know him well enough to
4 know, but I guess.
5 Q Is Mr. Terry McAuliffe within the
6 definition that you gave on ABC?
7 A I'm not going to answer.
8 Q Is he within the definition that
9 you just give here today?
10 A Sure.
11 Q Is Senator Chris Dodd and Don
12 Fowler within the definition of what you gave
13 on ABC?
14 A I'm not going to answer it.
15 Q Are they both within the definition
16 that you gave here today?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Is Governor Ray Romer within the
19 definition of you what gave on ABC?
20 A I'm not going to answer it.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
303
1 Q Is he within the definition of what
2 you gave her today?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Is Mr. David Kendall within the
5 definition of you what gave on ABC?
6 A No. I'm not going to answer it.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Is he within the definition that
10 you gave here today?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Same question with regard to Bob
13 Bennett?
14 A Yes.
15 Q He's within the definition that you
16 gave here today?
17 A Right.
18 Q Is he within the definition you
19 gave on ABC?
20 A I'm not going to answer it. You
21 know, we can go on and talk about everybody
22 who voted for Clinton, if you want to do
304
1 that. We can go -- there are probably a
2 hundred million people who fall within the
3 definition I gave today and I'm not going to
4 answer the question about anybody with regard
5 to what I said on ABC.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. Well,
7 let's certify that.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q You will stipulate to running
10 refusal to respond with regard to what you
11 said on ABC?
12 A I will stipulate -- that I am not
13 going to reveal my sources about -- about
14 my appearance on ABC.
15 Q Well, this is not question about
16 source.
17 A Of course it is.
18 Q It's a question of whether these
19 people fall within your definition of White
20 House allies.
21 A It's a definition. Those are the
22 sources. I'm not going to talk about my
305
1 sources. In this statement the White House
2 allies are my sources, I'm, therefore, not
3 going to talk about them.
4 Q Does Senator Robert Torcelli fall
5 within the definition that you gave today?
6 A Yes.
7 Q John Conyers?
8 A Yes, a lot of people --
9 Q Janet Reno?
10 A That's a little more complicated,
11 but, yes.
12 Q Louis Freeh?
13 A Oh, boy. Yes.
14 Q But you're not going to answer any
15 questions with regard to those people
16 concerning the definition you used on ABC?
17 A I'm not going to answer any
18 questions about who I talked to before I made
19 that statement on ABC.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q Before you went on ABC did you
306
1 write down some notes of this issue dealing
2 with Ellen Rometsch and gathering data?
3 A If I did, I might have written down
4 her name and then thrown it out just like I
5 do every Sunday. I sometimes -- I bring a
6 pad onto the set with me, but I don't always
7 follow it. Sometimes I do, sometimes I
8 don't. Depends on the course of the
9 conversation.
10 As you can tell in this
11 conversation, it's a free-flowing
12 conversation, a lot of interruptions.
13 Q Now, before you made your
14 appearance on ABC that day, on February 8th,
15 did you discuss with anyone at ABC this
16 so-called Ellen Rometsch study?
17 A No.
18 Q After you made this statement on
19 ABC, during any breaks or after the show, did
20 you discuss what was meant by the Ellen
21 Rometsch strategy with anyone there?
22 MR. BRAND: I'm going to object to
307
1 that question. I think his discussions with
2 his fellow journalists are not any of your
3 business.
4 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
5 Q You can respond.
6 MR. BRAND: No, he's not going to
7 respond because it's privileged.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
9 THE WITNESS: I would much rather
10 have ABC pay for this than me.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q In addition to Mr. Donaldson,
13 Mr. Will, Cokie Roberts, Bill Kristol, was
14 there anyone that you had contact with that
15 day at ABC?
16 MR. BRAND: Objection on the same
17 grounds.
18 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
19 Q You can respond.
20 MR. BRAND: No, he can't.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. Are you
22 claiming that all of these people at ABC or a
308
1 source, Mr. Brand?
2 MR. BRAND: I have put the on the
3 record the nature of my objection.
4 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't understand
5 it.
6 MR. BRAND: Well, file something in
7 court if you don't understand it.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: What is the basis of
9 your objection?
10 MR. BRAND: I have given the basis
11 of my objection.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: You're on notice,
13 Mr. Brand, that we will be seeking sanctions
14 here for your having refused to answer. It
15 will be sought against yourself and Mr.
16 Stephanopoulos. You're on notice you're
17 aware of that.
18 MS. SHAPIRO: I don't think you're
19 in a position to talk about sanctions,
20 Mr. Klayman.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you aware -- are
22 you on notice for that?
309
1 MR. BRAND: Don't threaten me,
2 Larry. Just go to court if you want to go to
3 court. I know the rules. I know may way to
4 the courthouse.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you wish to change
6 your mind in having him not answer?
7 MR. BRAND: No, Larry, I'm not
8 going to be threatened by you into changing
9 the nature of Mr. Stephanopoulos' privilege.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: What's the basis of
11 that privilege?
12 MR. BRAND: I gave you the basis.
13 The first amendment to the constitution and
14 Mr. Stephanopoulos' status as a journalist.
15 Go look it up.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: If he discussed this
17 with the people that he appeared on ABC with
18 or assisted him, you're claiming that they're
19 a source?
20 MR. BRAND: You're wasting your
21 time, Larry.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you saying that
310
1 anything he says is privileged under the
2 first amendment?
3 MR. BRAND: I'm not saying anything
4 else about this.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
6 MR. BRAND: I'd like the record to
7 reflect that it's okay when you went to be
8 argumentative with the attorneys that you
9 carry on that kind of discourse, but you
10 don't like that when someone does it to you
11 in your deposition.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just making sure,
13 Mr. Brand, that you understand the gravity of
14 your telling him not to answer.
15 MR. BRAND: Larry, I have been
16 through Motions To Compel before. I
17 understand the process.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: This is actually
19 refusing to have your witness answer.
20 MR. BRAND: I understand the
21 difference.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
311
1 Q Is Jack Quinn within the definition
2 that you gave here today?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Jane Sherburne?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Webster Hubbell?
7 MR. BRAND: Which definition are we
8 talking about?
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Of White House
10 allies.
11 THE WITNESS: Probably. I don't
12 know his state of mind today, but my guess he
13 is.
14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
15 Q Governor Jim Guy Tucker?
16 A I don't know.
17 Q Mack McLarty?
18 A Sure.
19 Q Bruce Lindsey?
20 A Yeah.
21 Q Now, who do you consider,
22 Mr. Stephanopoulos, to be adversaries of the
312
1 White House?
2 A I think it's pretty safe to say
3 that you are.
4 Q Other than myself?
5 A Oh, there's any one of a number --
6 I mean depending on the issue, most of the
7 republicans in the senate, for example, most
8 all of the republican -- all of the
9 republicans in the house and senate voted
10 against his original economic plan, but
11 that's just from issue to issue.
12 I think that the White House would
13 regard -- my judgment, no inside information
14 on this, but my judgment, I think the White
15 House would regard Ken Starr as an adversary
16 at this time, people who are generally not --
17 who are generally opposed to the President's
18 programs, opposed to what the President is
19 tying to do.
20 Frankly, my guess is that the White
21 House or many people in the White House may
22 consider me an adversary to the White House
313
1 right now.
2 Q Are there people that the White
3 House considers to be a threat to their
4 continued existence?
5 A Sometimes I feel like I am.
6 Q Other than you, Mr. Stephanopoulos.
7 A I don't know. I don't -- that's
8 not the words I would use.
9 Q Would I be in that category?
10 A Oh, you're not a threat to their
11 continued existence. You're not important
12 enough to be a threat to their continued
13 existence. You're just a nuisance.
14 Q I'm just kind of like a fly, fly on
15 the wall?
16 A Your words, not mine.
17 Q Pest?
18 A Your words, not mine.
19 Q I'm not worthy of rising to that
20 level?
21 A Not in my mind.
22 Q In the mind of anybody at the White
314
1 House?
2 A You'd have to ask them.
3 Q Ken Starr, does he rise to a higher
4 level?
5 A Probably, but I don't know.
6 Q What about John Fund of the Wall
7 Street Journal, have you ever heard anybody
8 discuss John Fund at the White House?
9 A I have discussed John Fund. I
10 think he's written a number of dishonest
11 editorials, including some about me.
12 Q What about John Fund have you
13 considered to be dishonest editorials?
14 A Oh, well, he had to take back an
15 editorial he wrote about me about a trip I
16 took to Greece in August of 1995. It was
17 so -- it was so intellectually dishonest. It
18 was -- and it was later shown to be that they
19 had to write a follow-up editorial.
20 Q Is he considered to be an adversary
21 of the White House?
22 A I just think he's a dishonest
315
1 journalist.
2 Q Can you say that publicly?
3 A Probably would, you know, if
4 anybody asked.
5 Q Based on your contact with the
6 White House, does the White House view him as
7 a threat?
8 A I don't know. I've never talked
9 with anybody in the White House about him.
10 Q Chris Matthews, have you talked to
11 anybody at the White House about Chris
12 Matthews recently?
13 A No.
14 Q Are you aware of anyone making
15 negative remarks about Chris Matthews?
16 A No.
17 Q Do you know whether he's being
18 investigated by the White House?
19 A I doubt he's being investigated,
20 but I don't know anything about it.
21 Q Is Mr. Fund?
22 A Not that I know of. You don't have
316
1 to investigate Mr. Fund. He -- he perjures
2 himself on the public record.
3 Q How so?
4 A He writes dishonest things on his
5 editorial page, then he has to take back.
6 That's something for the Washington editorial
7 page, to take back something, that can be
8 perceived adversary.
9 Q Have you ever complained to the
10 Wall Street Journal about Mr. Fund?
11 A Oh, yes.
12 Q When did you do that?
13 A Whenever the article came out.
14 Q You've written letters?
15 A Letters, phone calls, yes,
16 absolutely.
17 Q Have you ever made any statements
18 about him publicly?
19 A Nobody has asked about him
20 publicly.
21 Q Christopher Ruddy, is he considered
22 to be an adversary in the White House?
317
1 A Another deeply dishonest
2 journalist. Crazy guy I think actually.
3 Q How is he crazy?
4 A Well, he's pursued a crackpot
5 conspiracy in the face of literally thousands
6 of pages of evidence that were collected by a
7 host of independent investigatory bodies
8 ranging from the Park Service to the
9 Department of the Interior to the House and
10 Senate Committees to even Ken Starr, who has
11 said that Christopher Ruddy's theory of what
12 happened to Vince Foster is wrong in all
13 respects. Does that answer your question?
14 Q Is it your opinion that questioning
15 the death and how the death of Vince Foster
16 happened is crackpot?
17 A I think the -- continuing to
18 question the circumstances -- the tragic
19 circumstances of a suicide of a deeply
20 troubled man in the face of a mountain of
21 evidence to the contrary is not only
22 dishonest, it's despicable.
318
1 I think that to continue to
2 propagate that theory in order to raise
3 money, as has been done by a number of
4 adversaries of the President, including Jerry
5 Falwell going so far in his videos to even
6 suggest that the President might have been
7 complice in the death of Vince Foster, for
8 all I know you have -- you have done letters
9 on the same subject, but I don't know that.
10 I just don't know. I think to continue --
11 Q Are you saying I did or I didn't?
12 A I don't know.
13 Q You just assumed that I did?
14 A I think it's conceivable based
15 on --
16 Q Because I'm a crackpot, too?
17 A Your words, not mine.
18 Q Is that your opinion?
19 A I didn't think of those words, but
20 I'm not going to challenge them.
21 Q Because you think I'm a crackpot, I
22 wrote about Vince Foster?
319
1 A I didn't say that.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
3 I will ask the court reporter to mark as
4 Exhibit 9.
5 (Stephanopoulos Deposition
6 Exhibit No. 9 was marked for
7 identification.)
8 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the video
9 operator. We're going off the record. The
10 time now is approximately 4:34 p.m.
11 (Recess)
12 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the video
13 operator. We're going back on the record.
14 The time now is approximately 4:41 p.m.
15 Mr. Klayman?
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q I turn your attention to Exhibit 9.
18 Exhibit 9 is a transcript from ABC "This Week
19 With David Brinkley," dated June 30th, 1996.
20 I turn your attention to page 14 where it
21 states, "Right. Well." This is your
22 testimony at the top.
320
1 A It's not testimony. It's
2 television commentary.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: Commentary.
4 (Discussion off the record)
5 MR. BRAND: What's the question?
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q At the time that you made this
8 appearance on "This Week With David
9 Brinkley," you were employed by the White
10 House, correct?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q What was your position?
13 A I already answered that.
14 Q You state, "Right. Well, no,
15 that's not exactly what he said, but here's
16 the story as best I know it. He was working
17 for the campaign and the inaugural.
18 He was referred about a job in the
19 White House, I believe, from Christine
20 Varney." You're talking about Craig
21 Livingstone, correct?
22 A Yes.
321
1 Q Who was Christine Varney?
2 A She was a former FTC commissioner,
3 she's a lawyer in private practice now. I
4 think she also worked in -- was she cabinet
5 secretary? She worked in the White House.
6 Q How did you learn that information,
7 that he was referred for a job by Christine
8 Varney?
9 A I -- just speaking for the whole
10 answer, to save time, I --
11 Q No, I want to ask that question.
12 I'm not asking about the whole answer.
13 A Before I went on I received a
14 briefing, I think, from Jack -- either Jack
15 Quinn or Cheryl Mills, I don't remember which
16 one, to get the information to answer the
17 question.
18 Q What did Jack Quinn tell you?
19 A What I said --
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Object. He can't
21 testify as to what Jack Quinn told him while
22 he was working at the White House. It's
322
1 attorney-client privilege.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Oh, no. That's
3 information coming from the lawyer going to
4 Mr. Stephanopoulos, not vice versa. That's
5 not attorney-client privilege.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, he's not going
7 to answer questions about the substance of
8 conversations he had with the White House
9 counsel while he was working in the White
10 House.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you instructing
12 him not to answer?
13 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes. If you're
14 asking him about the substance of
15 conversations, yes.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
17 MR. BRAND: May we take a second
18 just to consult?
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Sure.
20 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the video
21 operator. We're going off the record. The
22 time now is approximately 4:45 p.m.
323
1 (Recess)
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the video
3 operator. We're going back on the record.
4 The time now is approximately 4:46 p.m.
5 Mr. Klayman?
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Is the objection
7 being withdrawn?
8 MS. SHAPIRO: No. If you can ask a
9 question that doesn't elicit the substance of
10 conversations, if you ask strictly about the
11 facts, then he can answer. If you ask about
12 what was said between the two, then the
13 privilege stands.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: The information going
15 from Mr. Quinn to Mr. Stephanopoulos is not
16 privileged.
17 MS. SHAPIRO: I think it may well
18 be.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Do you know why Mr. Craig
22 Livingstone was recommended by Christine
324
1 Varney?
2 A No.
3 Q Where is Christine Varney today?
4 A I don't know.
5 Q What was her job at the White
6 House?
7 A I already answered that.
8 Q Do you know when she left where she
9 went?
10 A She became a Federal Trade
11 Commissioner.
12 Q To the best of your knowledge, is
13 that where she is today?
14 A No.
15 Q Did you ever talk to Ms. Varney
16 about Craig Livingstone?
17 A No.
18 Q It then states, "I don't know if
19 she recommended him or not. He came to the
20 White House and he had a meeting with Vince
21 Foster and I believe with Cheryl Mills, an
22 associate counsel in the White House."
325
1 How did you learn that Craig
2 Livingstone had had a meeting with Vince
3 Foster?
4 A Everything I said in this answer
5 came from information I received from the
6 counsel's office. That's what I said.
7 Q Why didn't you qualify that saying
8 I understand that? The way you said this
9 it's as if you had personal knowledge.
10 A No, that's actually wrong, I mean
11 if you could read, which I guess you can't.
12 "Here's the story as best I know it."
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify this.
14 THE WITNESS: Well, you just
15 questioned whether -- why I didn't say
16 something that I already said and you would
17 have known I said it if you read it as
18 opposed to just challenging what I said.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q It says, "I don't know if she
21 recommended him or not. He came to the White
22 House and he had a meeting with Vince
326
1 Foster."
2 A "Here's the story as best I know
3 it."
4 Q You talked to Vince Foster about
5 Livingstone, didn't you, when he was alive?
6 A No.
7 Q You talked to other than Jack Quinn
8 about Vince Foster and Livingstone, did you
9 not?
10 A I don't understand that question.
11 Q You got the information from a
12 source other than Quinn as well, did you not?
13 A I got it from counsel's office. I
14 did no independent investigation of my own.
15 Q At the time you made this
16 statement, Vince Foster had already died,
17 correct?
18 A Which is why I didn't talk to him
19 about it, yeah.
20 Q It concerned you that his name was
21 coming up in the context of Craig Livingstone
22 at the time you made this statement, did it
327
1 not?
2 MR. BRAND: Objection to that
3 question again, Larry. There you go again
4 putting words in his mouth and wanting to
5 tell him what his testimony is instead of
6 asking --
7 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm allowed to ask
8 leading questions.
9 MR. BRAND: -- instead of asking
10 the question. You can't ask leading
11 questions on direct and that's where we are.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: He's an adverse
13 witness, Stanley.
14 MR. BRAND: I'm not going to let
15 you do that.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I can. Certify
17 it. Are you telling me I can't do that? Do
18 you want to talk that in front of the judge?
19 MR. BRAND: I'd like to take this
20 whole thing in front of the judge because I
21 think he would be absolutely nauseated by it.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, you will get
328
1 your opportunity because that's where most of
2 it's going.
3 THE WITNESS: Well, if most of it
4 goes, all of it should go.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, good. We'll
6 give him the whole thing.
7 THE WITNESS: Great.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: How about that?
9 You've got my word.
10 THE WITNESS: That and a quarter.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q It concerned you, did it not, that
14 Livingstone was involved with Foster?
15 A The answer speaks for itself.
16 Q Did it concern you at the time?
17 A Not particularly. What I was
18 concerned about was giving a direct answer to
19 the question, which is what I did.
20 Q What was Vince Foster's involvement
21 with the FBI files?
22 A None that I know of.
329
1 Q Is that one of the reasons why he
2 was distressed? You previously testified he
3 was distressed before he killed himself.
4 MR. BRAND: I don't think that was
5 his testimony.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q You can answer.
8 A I have no idea. I can't plumb
9 Vincent's mind nor can you at this moment.
10 Q You had discussed the FBI files
11 matter with Mr. Foster, had you not?
12 A No, I had not.
13 Q Before he killed himself?
14 A One more time. I -- I would think
15 that you would know the facts of this case
16 better than I do, but Vince Foster killed
17 himself sometime in July 1993.
18 This case broke in June 1996. It
19 would be literally impossible for me to have
20 that conversation with a dead man.
21 Q Before he died did you ever have a
22 conversation with him about the use of FBI
330
1 files?
2 A No.
3 Q Do you know of anyone who did?
4 A No.
5 Q Have you heard it said since then,
6 that he was concerned about FBI files?
7 A No.
8 Q To the best of your knowledge, has
9 Ken Starr ever asked questions about Vince
10 Foster in the context of the FBI files?
11 MR. BRAND: Objection.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q You can respond.
14 MR. BRAND: No, he can't.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Who is Cheryl Mills?
18 A As I said in the testimony,
19 associate counsel in the White House.
20 Q Do you know where she is today?
21 A I assume she's still an associate
22 in the White House.
331
1 Q Still there? Your statement here
2 says, "He came to the White House and he had
3 a meeting with Vince Foster and I believe
4 with Cheryl Mills, an associate counsel in
5 the White House."
6 Where did you get the information
7 that Livingstone had had a meeting with
8 Cheryl Mills, an associate counsel of the
9 White House?
10 A I already answered the question.
11 Q That's the same as your prior
12 question from Quinn?
13 A It's the same as the question I
14 answered 12 minutes ago.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Do you know what was discussed
18 between Cheryl Mills and Livingstone? I'm
19 not asking you to tell me the substance. Do
20 you know what was discussed between them?
21 A No.
22 Q Did you ever ask?
332
1 A No.
2 Q Did you ever ask what Livingstone
3 discussed with Foster?
4 A No.
5 Q Had no interest?
6 A No.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Well, I object that
8 you're assuming facts not in evidence. He
9 didn't testify that Livingstone talked with
10 Foster.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q "While he was there Bill Kennedy
13 came in as associate counsel, took over the
14 supervision of Craig Livingstone. Finished
15 the hiring process, formalized the hiring
16 process. He was hired by the counsel's
17 office."
18 Did you get that information from
19 Jack Quinn as well?
20 A I got it from the White House
21 Counsel's Office. I assume I got it from
22 him.
333
1 Q Have you ever asked what the extent
2 of Bill Kennedy's relationship was with the
3 FBI files of anybody in the White House?
4 A No.
5 Q Did you ask anybody outside of the
6 White House?
7 A No.
8 Q Do you know?
9 A No.
10 Q You testified that you had contact
11 with Paul Begala at the White House, correct,
12 since you have left the White House?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you know what Mr. Begala's job
15 responsibilities currently are at the White
16 House?
17 A Not precisely, but he's a political
18 counselor. He gives advice.
19 Q One of his job roles is to deal
20 with the press?
21 A In part.
22 Q Do you know what Sidney
334
1 Blumenthal's role at the White House is
2 currently?
3 A Not exactly.
4 Q Have you had contact with Sidney
5 since you left the White House in his
6 capacity as a White House employee?
7 A Some.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: What have you had
9 contact with him about?
10 (Witness conferred with
11 counsel)
12 THE WITNESS: A lot of things.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Have you had contact with him over
15 the Monica Lewinsky affair?
16 A That's a broad question. I don't
17 think I've ever discussed Monica Lewinsky
18 with him. Maybe once.
19 Q Have you ever discussed with
20 Blumenthal or Begala whether they were
21 conducting opposition research on adversaries
22 of the Clinton administration?
335
1 A No.
2 Q Are you aware of whether they are?
3 A My guess is they are not.
4 Q How do you reach that conclusion?
5 A Well, it depends on what you
6 consider opposition research. The White
7 House has said there are no private
8 investigators.
9 I guess it's conceivable that the
10 people in the White House are looking in the
11 public record of people who are saying things
12 about the President. I wouldn't deny that.
13 But I don't have any independent knowledge of
14 it.
15 Q You are aware that Terry Lenzner
16 works for Williams & Connolly, correct?
17 A I have read that in the newspaper.
18 I don't know that it's any -- I know that
19 it's been in the newspaper.
20 Q You are aware that Jack Palladino
21 has been alleged to have been part of an
22 effort to uncover dirt on Clinton
336
1 adversaries?
2 A I know that people have alleged it.
3 I don't know that it's true or not.
4 Q Among the adversaries, do you know
5 have any knowledge whether opposition
6 research was conducted on Paula Jones by the
7 White House?
8 A Well, I'm pretty sure it wasn't
9 done by the White House. Whether the
10 President's private attorneys have looked
11 into her background I don't know.
12 Q Do you have any knowledge of
13 whether opposition research was conducted on
14 Floyd Brown by the White House?
15 A No.
16 Q Dan Burton?
17 A No.
18 Q Newt Gingrich?
19 A No.
20 Q Ambrose Evans-Pritchard?
21 A No.
22 Q Are you aware that there came a
337
1 point in time when the White House developed
2 a document called "The Stream of Commerce
3 Conspiracy."
4 A We are getting into the important
5 stuff now. Yeah, I've read about that, too.
6 Q Were you there at that time?
7 A Yeah.
8 Q What do you know about that?
9 A It's a document that shows the --
10 how various stories work their way through
11 the press.
12 Q Who prepared that document?
13 A I don't know.
14 Q Have you ever seen that document?
15 A Probably. I don't remember when
16 though.
17 Q Have you ever discussed that
18 document with anyone?
19 A Not in real detail.
20 Q Who did you discuss it with not
21 detailed?
22 A Could have been any one of a number
338
1 of people. It's been written on in a book by
2 Howard Kurtz called "Spin Cycle."
3 Q Have you read that book?
4 A I have read pieces of it.
5 Q When did you last talk with
6 Mr. Kurtz?
7 A I don't know. Last few weeks
8 sometime.
9 Q Did you discuss his book with him?
10 A No.
11 Q Was Hillary Rodham Clinton involved
12 in that conspiracy commerce document?
13 A Not that I know of.
14 Q Did she ask for it to be prepared?
15 A I've read it through accounts in
16 Howard's book. I don't know -- have any
17 independent knowledge of it.
18 Q Based on your reading the public
19 reports, who was responsible for preparing
20 that report?
21 A Well, why do you care what I -- you
22 spent this whole time saying you don't care
339
1 what I think based on reading public reports,
2 but since you asked --
3 Q Please, answer the question.
4 A It seems like there was a lot of
5 people thinking about it, working on it. I
6 think Mrs. Clinton in the public reports
7 denied working on it. I have no reason to
8 disbelieve that, but I don't really remember.
9 Q But it did cross your desk at the
10 White House?
11 A May have. I couldn't swear to it.
12 Q Were you responsible for asking
13 questions about it when the story broke, that
14 it existed?
15 A No.
16 Q Do you know of anyone who was?
17 A I know Mike McCurry worked on it.
18 Q He worked on that report?
19 A He worked on making sure it wasn't
20 released I think. I don't really remember
21 the timing exactly. If you could tell me the
22 date of it, I might have a Better idea.
340
1 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
2 I will ask the court reporter to mark as
3 Exhibit 10.
4 (Stephanopoulos Deposition
5 Exhibit No. 10 was marked for
6 identification.)
7 MR. GAFFNEY: Is that a single
8 exhibit that page?
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes, it is.
10 MR. GAFFNEY: Can I have a copy?
11 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we don't have
12 another copy.
13 MR. GAFFNEY: Well, it strikes me
14 that it's incumbent upon you to have copies
15 of all exhibits.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, there's a lot
17 of things that -- I'm asking you if you will
18 share this and then we'll make copies.
19 MR. GAFFNEY: Well, I would like a
20 copy to take with me.
21 MR. BRAND: I don't want a copy.
22 You can have mine.
341
1 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll be happy to do
2 that, Mr. Gaffney.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Do you have an extra
4 copy for us? Do you have a copy for me?
5 MR. KLAYMAN: We'll make it for
6 you.
7 MS. SHAPIRO: Before we leave?
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I don't know
9 that we'll get it that quickly, but I just
10 have a few questions.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q Have you ever seen this document
13 before, "The Communication Stream of
14 Conspiracy Commerce," as edited by Joseph
15 Farah?
16 A No.
17 MR. BRAND: I'm not paying to store
18 that.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q What was that comment, Mr. Brand?
21 If you will take an opportunity to
22 leaf through this, Mr. Stephanopoulos.
342
1 A Okay.
2 Q Have you had a chance to look at
3 it? I saw your counsel just kind of fanning
4 it.
5 A Well, it's 600 pages. I mean if
6 you want to sit here and use up the rest of
7 the six hours for me to read it, I'm happy to
8 do that. It's actually 331 pages. Excuse
9 me.
10 Q It was quite a long report, wasn't
11 it?
12 A Well, and if you want me to read it
13 in detail, I will take that time and that
14 will eat up the rest of the six hours and we
15 can all go.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify this.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q Have you actually ever seen that
19 stream of commerce conspiracy document?
20 A I already answered that question.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: I will show you what
22 I will ask the court reporter to mark as
343
1 Exhibit 11.
2 (Stephanopoulos Deposition
3 Exhibit No. 11 was marked for
4 identification.)
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q I'm going to show you an excerpt.
7 It's Exhibit 11, and I will make a copy of
8 this, too, and just ask you whether this
9 excerpt was part of the original Stream of
10 Commerce report that you saw when you were
11 working at the White House?
12 A As I said, I wasn't sure that I saw
13 it at the White House, but I may have.
14 Q Well, I'm asking you to take a look
15 at it. It's a very short excerpt.
16 A I don't remember it, but I actually
17 kind of agree with it.
18 Q You do agree with it?
19 A In part, sure. I mean to the
20 extent it reaches a conclusion. But I think
21 there's a lot of facts here which are
22 demonstrable.
344
1 Q What parts do you agree with?
2 A I agree with the sentence,
3 "Whitewater is one of many issues originating
4 with sources without credibility."
5 I agree that there was a
6 discernible pattern -- here it is, but this
7 is in the past tense now -- in which Willie
8 Horton created Floyd Brown and tabloid news
9 organizations have forced stories into the
10 mainstream press.
11 I agree that stories are often
12 planted in the British tabloids and then
13 those stories are reported in the U.S. Press.
14 I have no reason to dispute the notation that
15 in February 1994 the Wall Street Journal's
16 editorial board meet with Floyd Brown.
17 I have no reason to dispute that
18 after that I have no reason to dispute that
19 after the meeting Journal devoted nearly half
20 of its editorial page to reprinting documents
21 it obtained from Brown in the meeting and
22 there's a quote that follows that.
345
1 I have no reason to dispute that
2 Brown's "Clinton Watch" published Whitewater
3 fax bulletin entitled "Special Counsel Robert
4 Fiske subpoenaed Clinton administration
5 officials and associates but he missed one,
6 Patsy Thomasson.
7 I have no reason to dispute that on
8 the next day, March 10th, 1994, the Wall
9 Street Journal ran an editorial entitled,
10 "Who is Patsy Thomasson?"
11 All of the documentation on page
12 two talking about British tabloids dated
13 January 17th, 18th, 19th, 1992, seems to me
14 to be a direct quotation from newspapers, as
15 is the items on January 23rd and
16 January 24th.
17 The documentation concerning
18 July 26th 1992, July 17th, 1992, January 23rd
19 1994 and January 24th 1994, all seems to be
20 some factual quotations from newspapers. I
21 have no reason to dispute that.
22 January 26th I assume is a matter
346
1 of public record that Richard Grenier wrote
2 an op-ed piece in the Washington Times based
3 on the London Sunday Telegraph.
4 January 28th, 1994, I assume it's a
5 matter of public record that the "Inside the
6 Beltway" section of The Washington Times gave
7 details of the Perdue's story and quoted
8 liberally from the Sunday Telegraph article.
9 I mean I can go like that for the
10 rest of the document if you would like.
11 Q People that you mentioned in that
12 article, Little Brown, are they part of the
13 adversaries of the White House that the Ellen
14 Rometsch strategy is being employed to smear?
15 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. It
16 assumes facts not in evidence.
17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
18 Q You can respond.
19 A That's not what I said.
20 Q You do have knowledge that the
21 White House is intent on smearing adversaries
22 of the Clinton administration as we speak?
347
1 A I didn't say that, no.
2 Q That's not what the Ellen Rometsch
3 strategy means?
4 A I have never used those words.
5 Q Is at not true that Williams &
6 Connolly and David Kendall are embarking upon
7 a strategy to smear adversaries of the
8 Clinton administration?
9 A You have to ask them.
10 Q Do you have any knowledge of that?
11 A No.
12 Q You have an agent that works there,
13 don't you?
14 A Yes.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify this.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q You're aware that they include
18 Terry Lenzner?
19 MR. BRAND: Certify for what? He
20 answered the question.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: For the attitude.
22 MR. BRAND: Can you be sanctioned
348
1 for attitude, Larry?
2 MR. KLAYMAN: I think you can.
3 MR. BRAND: You can? I would like
4 to see a case on that. I'm unaware of it.
5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
6 Q Are you aware that they employed
7 Terry Lenzner to do investigations against
8 adversaries?
9 MR. BRAND: Asked and answered.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q Are you aware of that?
12 A We can go back in the record and
13 pick out my answer.
14 Q Are you aware of that?
15 MR. BRAND: Asked and answered.
16 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
17 Q Are you aware of an effort by the
18 White House to comment on Susan Schmitt of
19 The Washington Post?
20 A I have read about it.
21 Q Was that effort undertaken while
22 you were at the White House?
349
1 A It actually wasn't undertaken, but
2 it was discussed when I was at the White
3 House.
4 Q Who was it discussed with?
5 A I know Mike McCurry was involved in
6 discussions. I know there were other members
7 including maybe Mark Fabiani.
8 I think I was at one meeting where
9 it was discussed, but not meeting where the
10 matter was finally adjudicated.
11 Q Who was at that meeting?
12 A I assume Mark Fabiani, maybe Chris
13 Lehane and Mike McCurry, but I don't remember
14 a date or anything like that.
15 Q Chris who?
16 A Lehane.
17 Q How is that spelled?
18 A L-e-h-a-n-e.
19 Q What specifically was discussed?
20 MS. SHAPIRO: Objection. Can I
21 consult for a second, please?
22 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is video
350
1 operator. We're going off the record. The
2 time now is approximately 5:07 p.m.
3 (Discussion off the record)
4 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is video
5 operator. We're going back on the record.
6 The time now is approximately 5:10 p.m.
7 Mr. Klayman?
8 (The reporter read the record
9 as requested.)
10 MR. KLAYMAN: Read back the
11 question.
12 THE WITNESS: I don't remember
13 specifically. If I were at the meeting, it
14 was probably this matter, this -- the
15 question of Sue Schmitt's reporting.
16 As I said, I don't believe I was at
17 the subsequent meeting, if there were indeed
18 one, where it was finally decided what to do
19 about this report. I don't think I read the
20 actual report, so I don't remember.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q There was a report prepared.