1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
2
-------------------------x
3 CARA LESLIE ALEXANDER :
et al., :
4 :
Plaintiffs :
5 :
v. : Civil No. 96-2123 (RCL)
6 :
FEDERAL BUREAU OF :
7 INVESTIGATION et al., :
:
8 Defendants. :
-------------------------x
9
10 Washington, D.C.
11 Thursday, May 21, 1998
12 Deposition of
13 HAROLD ICKES
14 a witness, called for examination by counsel
15 for Plaintiffs, pursuant to notice and
16 agreement of counsel, beginning at
17 approximately 10:07 a.m., at the offices of
18 Judicial Watch, Inc., 501 School Street,
19 S.W., Washington, D.C., before Lynell C. S.
20 Abbott, notary public in and for the District
21 of Columbia, when were present on behalf on
22 the respective parties:
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of Plaintiffs:
3 LARRY KLAYMAN, ESQUIRE
TOM FITTON, ESQUIRE
4 Judicial Watch, Inc.
501 School Street, S.W., Suite 725
5 Washington, D.C. 20024
(202) 646-5172
6
On behalf of the Executive
7 Office of the President (EOP)
and the Witness:
8
ELIZABETH SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE
9 U.S. Department of Justice
901 E Street, N.W., 9th Floor
10 Washington, D.C. 20004
(202) 514-5302
11
On behalf of the Witness:
12
AMY R. SABRIN, ESQUIRE
13 LILY G. ARBAB, ESQUIRE
Skadden Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP
14 1440 New York Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005-2111
15 (202) 371-7000
16 On behalf of Hillary Rodham Clinton:
17 ROBERT M. CARY, ESQUIRE
Williams & Connolly
18 725 Twelfth Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005
19 (202) 434-5175
20 ALSO PRESENT:
21 Sally Paxton
22 * * * * *
3
1 C O N T E N T S
2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
3 Counsel for Plaintiffs 5
4
ICKES DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:
5
No. 1 - Subpoena 7
6
No. 2 - May 21, 1998, Letter, Sabrin 16
7 to Klayman, Attachments
8 No. 3 - Objections to Subpoena 17
Duces Tecum
9
No. 4 - Insight on the News 74
10
No. 5 - The Washington Times Article 134
11 by Bill Sammon
12 No. 6 - February 8, 1998, ABC News 233
Transcript
13
No. 7 - December 13, 1994, Task List 301
14
No. 8 - July 6, 1994, The Hotline 310
15
No. 9 - Bates FBI-00004335 352
16
No. 10 - Bates JW 0189 371
17
No. 11 - Handwritten Notes 387
18
No. 12 - January 2, 1996, Memorandum, 436
19 Taggart to Good
20
21 * * * * *
22
4
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. This
3 is the video deposition of Harold Ickes taken
4 by the counsel for the plaintiffs in the
5 matter of Cara Leslie Alexander, et al., v.
6 the Federal Bureau of Investigation, et al.
7 In the U.S. District Court for the District
8 of Columbia, Case No. 96-2123; held in the
9 offices of Judicial Watch, 501 School Street,
10 Southwest, Washington, D.C. on this date,
11 May 21st, 1998 and at the time indicated on
12 video screen, which is 10:07 a.m. My name is
13 Sylvanus Holley. I'm the videographer. The
14 court reporter today is Lynell Abbott from
15 the firm of Beta Reporting. Will counsel now
16 introduce themselves.
17 MR. KLAYMAN: Larry Klayman, on
18 behalf of Judicial Watch.
19 MR. FITTON: Tom Fitton, Legal
20 Assistant for Judicial Watch.
21 MS. SABRIN: Amy Sabrin, on behalf
22 of Harold Ickes.
5
1 MS. ARBAB: Lily Arbab, on behalf
2 of Harold Ickes.
3 MS. SHAPIRO: Elizabeth Shapiro on
4 behalf of the Executive Office of the
5 President and the witness in his capacity as
6 a former government official.
7 MS. PAXTON: Sally Paxton with the
8 White House.
9 MR. CARY: Robert Cary, on behalf
10 of Mrs. Clinton from Williams & Connolly.
11 VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court
12 reporter please swear in the witness.
13 Whereupon,
14 HAROLD ICKES
15 was called as a witness and, having been
16 first duly sworn, was examined and testified
17 as follows:
18 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Let me just register at the outset
21 a continuing objection which is currently
22 under briefing with the court with regard to
6
1 the presence and participation of Ms. Paxton
2 of the White House.
3 Mr. Ickes, would you please state
4 your name?
5 A Harold Ickes.
6 MS. SABRIN: Mr. Klayman, before we
7 start, I would just like to state for the
8 record again which we represented to you in
9 our correspondence, that we're here
10 voluntarily today, because we believe the
11 subpoena directed to Mr. Ickes was not
12 effectively served. In connection with that,
13 we are here returning the witness' check
14 because our appearance is voluntary.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, let the record
16 reflect it's our position that Mr. Ickes was
17 properly served. We've been on notice with
18 you that he's not here voluntarily. He's
19 here under subpoena. We had not been advised
20 that you were returning the witness check
21 until today. We assumed he was here under
22 subpoena. That is our position. If we have
7
1 to take the matter up with the court,
2 certainly we will do that. I will show you
3 what I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
4 Exhibit 1.
5 (Ickes Deposition Exhibit No. 1
6 was marked for identification.)
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q Mr. Ickes, have you seen Exhibit 1
9 before?
10 A I have.
11 Q When was the first time you saw it?
12 A Probably a week and a half or so
13 ago when I returned from Puerto Rico.
14 Apparently, it had been stuffed in my mailbox
15 or left on the front door, on the front steps
16 of my house.
17 Q Who advised you that it had been
18 stuffed in your mailbox or left on the front
19 steps of your house?
20 A My wife.
21 Q Was she the one who found the
22 subpoena?
8
1 A I don't know.
2 Q Is there anybody living in your
3 house that's anyone other than your wife?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Who is that?
6 A My daughter.
7 Q Are there any other men in your
8 house?
9 A No.
10 Q During the period you were in
11 Puerto Rico were there any men in your house
12 either visiting or staying over or for any
13 other reason?
14 A I don't know. I wasn't there.
15 Q Has your wife advised you of that?
16 A Advised me of what?
17 Q As to whether there were other men
18 there.
19 A She has not advised me of that.
20 MR. KLAYMAN: The court reporter
21 needs to stop for one-half of a second, he
22 says.
9
1 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the
2 video record at 10:11.
3 (Discussion off the record)
4 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
5 record at 10:11, 55 seconds.
6 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
7 Q Has anyone advised you, Mr. Ickes,
8 that this subpoena was received by another
9 male?
10 A No.
11 Q What did you do after you claim
12 your wife gave you the subpoena?
13 A I didn't claim. I said she did.
14 It's not a claim.
15 Q Well, we'll be contesting that, but
16 that's fine, that's your testimony. What did
17 you do after you got it?
18 A I gave it to my attorney.
19 Q Who is your attorney?
20 A Ms. Sabrin.
21 Q Did you forward it to her
22 immediately or was it only after a number of
10
1 days that you provided it to her?
2 A I don't recall.
3 Q Roughly speaking.
4 A I don't recall.
5 Q This wasn't that long ago, was it?
6 A I think I've stated for the record
7 how long ago it was, Mr. Klayman.
8 Q Was it days or weeks before you
9 gave it to her?
10 A For the third time, Mr. Klayman, I
11 don't recall.
12 Q Are you aware you're under oath,
13 Mr. Ickes?
14 A I am, Mr. Klayman.
15 Q Are you aware that being under oath
16 means telling everything you know and not
17 withholding information?
18 A I do, Mr. Klayman.
19 Q What did you do when you gave your
20 attorney the subpoena? Did you meet with her
21 subsequently?
22 A I had met with her, yes.
11
1 Q Did you discuss the document
2 request in the subpoena?
3 MS. SABRIN: Object on the grounds
4 of attorney-client privilege. What we
5 discussed with my client --
6 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking for
7 the substance, just what was discussed.
8 MS. SABRIN: It's obvious from the
9 context of the question that it dealt with
10 general business litigation and the subpoena.
11 Beyond that, he will not answer questions
12 about our conversation.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking for
14 the conversation. I'm just saying whether
15 the general subject matter of document
16 production was discussed.
17 MS. SABRIN: You may answer that
18 question.
19 A Yes.
20 Q Did you go through the various
21 document requests in the subpoena with your
22 counsel?
12
1 MS. SABRIN: I'm going to object on
2 the grounds of attorney-client privilege.
3 You've got the general subject matter and
4 that's what you're entitled to.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm entitled to seek
6 in that regard whether or not he went through
7 the various document requests with you. I'm
8 not asking for the substance of discussions.
9 MS. SABRIN: I'm objecting and
10 directing him not to answer on the grounds of
11 attorney-client privilege.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. When I
13 certify it I'm going to raise it with the
14 court. We've been through this in a prior
15 deposition, Ms. Sabrin.
16 THE WITNESS: What does certified
17 mean? Other than crazy.
18 MS. SABRIN: You're going to have
19 to ask.
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q It means we're marking it on the
22 record, Mr. Ickes. Other than what? What
13
1 did you say?
2 A I asked Ms. Sabrin what "certified"
3 meant.
4 Q It means being certified on the
5 record so the court will find this section of
6 the video.
7 A Okay.
8 Q So it can rule on the objection and
9 the instruction not to answer. Have you
10 produced any documents in response to the
11 subpoena?
12 MS. SABRIN: We brought with us
13 today those documents that we are producing.
14 Providing them to Mr. Fitton. Let me provide
15 this to Williams & Connolly and Ms. Shapiro.
16 If you'd like copies of those documents I
17 can.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm sorry,
19 Ms. Sabrin. Are you handing them the same
20 copies that your handing me?
21 MS. SABRIN: No.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: What did you hand to
14
1 them?
2 MS. SABRIN: That's not really
3 relevant to you what I've handed to them at
4 this point. It's explained in the cover
5 letter to you.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Let the record
7 reflect that certain documents which
8 Ms. Sabrin refuses to identify were handed to
9 counsel for the Clinton Administration,
10 Ms. Shapiro. Ms. Sabrin, do you have another
11 copy of what's been provided to you?
12 MS. SABRIN: I do not.
13 THE WITNESS: Do you mind if we
14 keep the air conditioning on?
15 MR. KLAYMAN: It goes on and off.
16 THE WITNESS: No, he just cut it
17 off, sir.
18 VIDEOGRAPHER: She was having
19 trouble hearing. That's why.
20 THE WITNESS: Sir, I'm going to
21 need the air conditioner on. I get mighty
22 hot mighty quick. We don't want that.
15
1 MR. KLAYMAN: We don't want you to
2 get hot.
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q Let's go through the subpoena and
5 because another copy was not produced,
6 Mr. Ickes, if you want to take a look at the
7 document that I'm identifying, Mr. Fitton can
8 take it over and show it to you.
9 The first document request No. 1,
10 did you produce any documents in response to
11 document request No. 1, which is on Page 4 of
12 the subpoena?
13 A Well, my attorney has reviewed all
14 the documents. I think that I'd have to
15 consult her as to whether or not we produced
16 documents in connection with that particular
17 paragraph.
18 MS. SABRIN: Let me just state for
19 the record that, as you know, we have
20 submitted objections to your subpoena, and
21 today we've also submitted a supplemental
22 objection. We searched for documents that
16
1 were responsive to any requests that we
2 didn't object to or some objections were only
3 partial. In that case, we also searched for
4 documents responsive to that. If we had them
5 they were included to you to the extent that
6 they were not privileged.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I have here a
8 letter dated May 21st, 1998. Attached to
9 that are supplemental objections to Subpoena
10 Duces Tecum to Nonparty Harold Ickes, with a
11 date of May 21st, 1998. It's our position
12 that notwithstanding that the initial
13 objections were untimely, that these
14 objections are for sure untimely, the
15 supplemental objections. But I do have a
16 copy and I'll that ask that your letter of
17 May 21st, 1998 with attached supplemental
18 objections be marked as Exhibit 2.
19 (Ickes Deposition Exhibit No. 2
20 was marked for identification.)
21 MR. KLAYMAN: I further will ask
22 that the original objections, Rule 45
17
1 Objections to Subpoena Duces Tecum to
2 Nonparty Harold Ickes served by facsimile on
3 or about May 13th, 1998 which we also
4 maintain were untimely, may be marked as
5 Exhibit 3.
6 (Ickes Deposition Exhibit No. 3
7 was marked for identification.)
8 MR. KLAYMAN: It's our position
9 that all objections are waived.
10 MS. SABRIN: As you know, it's our
11 position the subpoena was not properly
12 served. Therefore, we are here voluntarily,
13 we are producing documents voluntarily and we
14 voluntarily provided objections as well.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: I suspect we'll be
16 litigating that issue.
17 MS. SABRIN: You do.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: YES.
19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
20 Q Mr. Ickes, when were you born?
21 A September 4th, 1939.
22 Q Run me through briefly your
18
1 educational experience, high school, college,
2 postgraduate studies.
3 A I went to high school, I went to
4 law school.
5 Q Where did you go to high school?
6 A Sidwell Friends School, Washington,
7 D.C.
8 Q When did you graduate?
9 A Around 1997. Off three or four
10 decades.
11 Q During the period that you were at
12 Sidwell Friends School, did you have any
13 disciplinary issues at all?
14 A Did I have any what?
15 Q Disciplinary proceedings.
16 A What do you mean by that?
17 Q Was there anything that was done,
18 were you ever suspended, expelled or anything
19 to that effect?
20 A It happened a long time ago,
21 Mr. Klayman. I don't recall.
22 Q You don't remember. What did you
19
1 do upon graduating from Sidwell Friends
2 School?
3 A I worked.
4 Q Where did you work?
5 A Various places.
6 Q Did you work before you went to
7 university?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Where did you work?
10 A I worked in Oregon, California,
11 primarily.
12 Q What were you doing in Oregon and
13 California?
14 A Worked on cattle ranches and
15 construction jobs.
16 Q How long did you do that?
17 A Three or four years.
18 Q Who did you work for in Oregon?
19 A I'd have to go back and check my
20 records. It happened a long time ago.
21 Q California?
22 A Again, I'd have to go back and
20
1 check my records, Mr. Klayman.
2 Q After about three or four years,
3 you then entered Stanford University, was it?
4 A No.
5 Q No? What happened then?
6 A I went to another university.
7 Q Which one was that?
8 A University of Arizona.
9 Q What year did you start there?
10 A I'd have to check that, too. I
11 think it was around 1960, something like
12 that.
13 Q Did there come a point in time when
14 you switched schools?
15 A Yes.
16 Q When was that?
17 A After my first year at the
18 University of Arizona.
19 Q Why did you leave after your first
20 year?
21 A I don't recall.
22 Q You don't remember that?
21
1 A No. It happened a long time ago.
2 Q Were you thrown out?
3 A Was I what?
4 Q Thrown out.
5 A No.
6 Q Didn't have any disciplinary
7 problems at the University of Arizona?
8 A Not that I recall. It happened a
9 long time ago.
10 Q You don't remember.
11 A Um-mm.
12 Q So you then went to Stanford.
13 A Yes.
14 Q What year was that?
15 A The year after my first year at the
16 University of Arizona.
17 Q What did you major in at Stanford?
18 A Economics.
19 Q Did you graduate?
20 A Yes.
21 Q What year was that?
22 A Three years later after I entered.
22
1 Q During the period you were at
2 Stanford were you ever suspended or expelled
3 or did you have any disciplinary problems?
4 A A long time ago, Mr. Klayman. I
5 don't recall.
6 Q What did you do after you graduated
7 from Stanford?
8 A I went to law school.
9 Q Which law school did you attend?
10 A Columbia.
11 Q Did you go immediately or did you
12 take some time off?
13 A I took the summer off.
14 Q Did you ultimately graduate from
15 Columbia Law School?
16 A Did I what?
17 Q Ultimately graduate.
18 A I graduated.
19 Q What year did you graduate?
20 A I don't recall.
21 Q Roughly speaking.
22 A Late sixties, early seventies.
23
1 Q Did you then take the Bar exam?
2 A I did.
3 Q Did you pass the Bar exam?
4 A I did.
5 Q In which states?
6 A New York.
7 Q Is that the only state where you're
8 licensed to practice law?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Are you still currently licensed to
11 practice law?
12 A As far as I know.
13 Q Have you ever been disciplined or
14 censored or anything to that effect by any
15 Bar association?
16 A Not to my knowledge.
17 Q You can't remember?
18 A Not to my knowledge is what I said.
19 Q Well, if you were, wouldn't you
20 know that?
21 A Not to my knowledge, Mr. Klayman.
22 Q I'm trying to get an understanding
24
1 what that means. That means you don't
2 remember?
3 A It means exactly what it says,
4 Mr. Klayman.
5 Q Does it just mean no?
6 A Mr. Klayman, the record speaks for
7 itself.
8 Q Does it just mean no?
9 A Not to my knowledge, Mr. Klayman.
10 Q What did you do after you graduated
11 from law school?
12 A I worked in campaigns and then
13 practiced law.
14 Q Which campaigns did you work in
15 upon graduating from law school?
16 A I worked in a number of campaigns.
17 I don't think I can recall them all here.
18 Q Just for identification purposes.
19 A Just for what?
20 Q Identification purposes. I'm not
21 asking for a lot of depth here, just to set
22 forth your background.
25
1 A I worked in the -- my recollection
2 is that I worked in the Eugene McCarthy
3 campaign for President. I worked in Eugene
4 Nickerson's campaign for Governor.
5 Q Of New York?
6 A Basil Patterson's -- yes. Basil
7 Patterson's campaign for Lieutenant Governor,
8 various other Presidential campaigns.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: Off the record.
10 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
11 video record at 10:25.
12 (Discussion off the record)
13 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on video
14 record at 10:25.
15 A Mr. Klayman, just so that I know,
16 does the time that we go off the record count
17 against the six-hour limit?
18 Q It depends why we go off the
19 record. We we're off the record I think for
20 about a minute. I'll be very generous and
21 you can count that towards the six-hour
22 limit, Mr. Ickes. But if we go off the
26
1 record because your counsel has forced us off
2 the record or because you're consulting with
3 your lawyers or whatever the case may be,
4 then that's not part of the six-hour limit.
5 A I see, okay.
6 Q But I'll grant you that one minute.
7 A Well, I'm not asking for any
8 favors. I just wanted to know what the
9 information was.
10 Q So run me through your other
11 campaigns up to the point that you got your
12 first job out of law school.
13 A Well, to the extent that I can
14 remember, I worked in the judicial campaign
15 for Bernard Meyer, for the Court of Appeals
16 in New York. I think I worked for Nanette
17 Denbitz at one point for a judicial position.
18 I worked for Burch Bayh at one point; did
19 some work for Walter Mondale, Jesse Jackson,
20 Mo Udall, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton.
21 Q Did you do all of that up to the
22 point you got your first legal position out
27
1 of law school? I'm looking for that interim
2 period.
3 A Ted Kennedy. No.
4 Q What happened in the interim
5 period?
6 A Which period are you talking about?
7 Q When you graduated from law school.
8 You said you worked on some campaigns.
9 A I just told you.
10 Q I'm just trying to chronologically
11 get this thing straight.
12 A I worked on some campaigns.
13 Q Did there come a point in time when
14 you got a legal position?
15 A Yes.
16 Q When was that?
17 A That was approximately 1977, I
18 think. I was working for Bob Wagner for
19 Burrough President at that time.
20 Q For who? Bob Wagner?
21 A Bob Wagner, yes.
22 Q I didn't hear the last part.
28
1 A Yes, Bob Wagner, I'm sorry.
2 Q Who was he with?
3 A He was with himself.
4 Q This is a law firm?
5 A No, no. I was working for Bob
6 Wagner for Burrough President campaign.
7 Q I asked you whether you got a legal
8 position. Was it a legal position with Bob
9 Wagner?
10 A No, no, no. He wasn't a lawyer.
11 Q When did you first start to
12 practice as a lawyer?
13 A I said in 1977, Mr. Klayman. Asked
14 and answered.
15 Q Who did you start with?
16 A A law firm by the name of Meyer,
17 Suozzi, English -- that's it's current name.
18 Meyer, Suozzi, English & Klein. It's gone
19 through a couple of name changes, but some of
20 those names have carried on over the years.
21 Q What was your position with that
22 firm, did you start as an associate?
29
1 A I did.
2 Q Did you ultimately become a
3 partner?
4 A I did.
5 Q When was that?
6 A It was either 1980 or 1981, as I
7 recall.
8 Q How long did you stay with the
9 firm?
10 A I stayed with the firm until the
11 end of 1993.
12 Q What happened then?
13 A I resigned from the firm.
14 Q Got a job with the White House?
15 A I did.
16 Q What job was that?
17 A I was an Assistant to the President
18 and Deputy Chief of Staff.
19 Q What were your duties and
20 responsibilities as Assistant to the
21 President?
22 A To assist the President in whatever
30
1 way he wanted.
2 Q So it was an open-ended type
3 assignment.
4 A Pretty much.
5 Q Anything he asked you to do, you
6 would do.
7 A Pretty much.
8 Q Deputy Chief of Staff, what were
9 your duties and responsibilities under that
10 position?
11 A The same.
12 Q Did you report directly to the
13 President?
14 A I reported directly to the Chief of
15 Staff. There were times when I dealt
16 directly with the President. But if you're
17 looking on a chart, I reported to the Chief
18 of Staff.
19 Q Who was the Chief of Staff at that
20 time?
21 A At that time it was Mr. McClarty.
22 Q How long did you stay in these two
31
1 positions when you were with the White House?
2 A I remained in those two
3 positions -- well, they're actually one
4 position but they're two different titles --
5 until approximately January 20th of 1997.
6 Q During that period of time did the
7 Chief of Staff change?
8 A Yes.
9 Q When was that?
10 A I think it was sometime in the
11 summer of 1964 -- I'm sorry -- 1994.
12 Q At that time the change was made to
13 Leon Panetta who became Chief of Staff.
14 Correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Mr. Panetta remained Chief of Staff
17 up until the point you left on
18 January 20th, 1997.
19 A Yes.
20 Q I take it before you became
21 Assistant to the President and Deputy Chief
22 of Staff that you worked on the Clinton
32
1 campaigns, the Primary campaign in 1992 and
2 then the general Presidential election
3 campaign.
4 A Yes.
5 Q What was your position with regard
6 to the Primary campaign of Governor Clinton?
7 A I was, I basically ran the New York
8 State Primary for him.
9 Q You were campaign manager.
10 A No. David Wilhelm was the campaign
11 manager.
12 Q Did you have a title?
13 A I don't think I did.
14 Q What were your duties and
15 responsibilities in terms of running the
16 campaign?
17 A Whatever a campaign manager does to
18 run a campaign, that's what I did.
19 MS. SABRIN: Object to the
20 mischaracterization of his testimony.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q What does a campaign manager do to
33
1 run a campaign, based on your experience and
2 based upon having run the campaign of
3 Governor Clinton during the Primary?
4 MS. SABRIN: He did not testify
5 that he ran the campaign of Governor Clinton
6 during the Primary.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q In New York.
9 A I organized the state, helped
10 organize the state of New York for him
11 politically, and he was successful in winning
12 it.
13 Q You were the one who was ultimately
14 responsible for everything that went on in
15 New York as campaign manager on behalf of
16 Governor Clinton.
17 A I would not want to be held
18 responsible for everything that went on in
19 New York, Mr. Klayman. It's a big load.
20 Q For Governor Clinton.
21 A That's a big load you're putting
22 on --
34
1 Q For Governor Clinton?
2 A No. If you knew the cast of
3 characters, you wouldn't even impose that on
4 me.
5 Q Even I wouldn't do that, Mr. Ickes.
6 A Even you wouldn't do that,
7 Mr. Klayman.
8 Q Who were the cast of characters?
9 A Oh, you've had a lot of them
10 sitting here at this table. You know, it
11 started with the Governor, obviously and his
12 top staff and thousands of volunteers.
13 Q I take it the reason that you
14 wouldn't want to be responsible for those
15 cast of characters is because there are
16 things they did you don't want to be
17 associated with.
18 A Not at all. You shouldn't draw
19 negative inferences, Mr. Klayman, in that.
20 Q Should I draw positive inferences?
21 A You can do anything you want.
22 Q You then went on to the general
35
1 election campaign. Correct?
2 A I did.
3 Q What was your duties and
4 responsibilities in the general Presidential
5 campaign on behalf of Governor Clinton
6 in 1992?
7 A Well, after the Primary, I ran the
8 national convention for him. Then I worked
9 at the Democratic National Committee during
10 the general election campaign.
11 Q What were your duties and
12 responsibilities for the DNC?
13 A I was the -- what is the right
14 title, not vice chair, deputy chair of the
15 campaign under Ron Brown.
16 Q As deputy chair, what were your
17 duties and responsibilities specifically?
18 A Basically overseeing those aspects
19 of the DNC that Mr. Brown either didn't have
20 time for or was involved in other things.
21 Q Fund raising?
22 A There was a fund raising component.
36
1 I had very little to do with it. It had been
2 there when I got there. It was
3 well-organized as far as I knew and carried
4 on.
5 Q What was your primary component?
6 What did you do mostly under Ron Brown?
7 A It's typical of what anyone does at
8 that high level. It's, I was basically
9 responsible for overseeing the day-to-day
10 functioning of the DNC. It had many
11 departments. There were a number of
12 departments that I didn't pay much attention
13 to. But it was primarily involved in
14 overseeing a number of the functions that
15 Mr. Brown would have when he was away
16 traveling on the road.
17 Q So as Ron Brown's deputy, who was
18 Chairman of the Democratic National
19 Committee, you were the one who actually made
20 sure that the DNC ran during that period,
21 correct, you had the operational
22 responsibilities?
37
1 A Well, the DNC is an institution of
2 long standing and has been running sort of
3 like the Federal Government. It runs on its
4 own in large measure. But I was there to
5 basically carry out functions that Mr. Brown
6 wanted me to carry out.
7 Q Specifically, what did he want you
8 to carry out?
9 A Basically, as I've said, to oversee
10 those aspects that he would oversee were he
11 there, but he was traveling a lot during the
12 general election campaign.
13 Q Did you ever meet an Olanda Hill?
14 A I don't think that I have.
15 Q You are aware that she was a
16 business partner of Ron Brown and personal
17 confidante of the late Commerce Secretary?
18 A I only know what I've read in the
19 paper, and we know how notoriously inaccurate
20 the papers can be.
21 Q Do we know that?
22 A Well, I do.
38
1 Q Are you saying that you never met
2 her or you just don't remember?
3 MS. SHAPIRO: I'd just insert a
4 relevancy objection for the record.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond.
6 MS. SHAPIRO: You can go ahead.
7 A I've already answered the question.
8 We can have the court reporter read it back.
9 Q Well, give it to me again. It will
10 be faster. You want to move it along.
11 A Asked and answered, Mr. Klayman.
12 Q Are you making your own objections?
13 A I'm testifying, Mr. Klayman.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: During the time you
15 worked on Governor Clinton's Primary campaign
16 and the period that you worked at the DNC,
17 did you retain any documents that were
18 generated in either of the two endeavors? In
19 other words, did you take them home? Did you
20 store them anywhere? Did you take them off
21 premises?
22 (Witness conferred with counsel)
39
1 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the
2 question?
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q During the time that you worked on
5 the Primary campaign of Governor Clinton, did
6 you retain documents of the work that you
7 performed?
8 A At that point I retained documents,
9 some documents, yes.
10 Q Did you take the documents and make
11 copies of them and keep them in your own
12 personal capacity?
13 A I don't recall what happened to
14 those documents. The campaign was very
15 fast-paced and very fast moving. I think I
16 may have kept some lists of some names of
17 people who worked in the campaign. Other
18 than that, I don't recall keeping documents.
19 I may have some newspaper clips from that
20 period of time. But I'm not even sure I have
21 that.
22 Q Did you live in New York during
40
1 that period of time?
2 A I did. Well, which period are we
3 talking about? Just so we can be precise.
4 Q During the Primary campaign of
5 Governor Clinton during 1992.
6 A Yes, during the Primary campaign, I
7 did.
8 Q Where did you live in New York
9 during that period?
10 A I lived at my apartment.
11 Q Where was that?
12 A That was 16 West 77th Street.
13 Q West 77th?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Do you still have that apartment?
16 A I do.
17 Q Do you have documents in that
18 apartment currently?
19 A Do I have documents in the
20 apartment?
21 Q Yes.
22 A We rent the apartment.
41
1 Q Excuse me?
2 A We rent the apartment to others.
3 Q When did you first rent that
4 apartment?
5 MS. SABRIN: I'm going to object on
6 the grounds of relevancy.
7 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
8 Q You can respond.
9 A I rented the apartment -- we rented
10 the apartment approximately in June or July
11 of 1994.
12 Q Did you then move to Washington or
13 did you get another apartment?
14 A I did neither.
15 Q What did you do?
16 A You mean what did I do?
17 Q Yes, at that time.
18 A I was living in Washington at that
19 time.
20 Q Well, you had kept some documents
21 in that apartment, did you not, up to the
22 time that you rented it?
42
1 A What documents are you talking
2 about?
3 Q Any documents.
4 A Yeah. I had a lot of books, boxes
5 of books.
6 Q You had some boxes of documents
7 that you had kept from prior work
8 experiences, correct?
9 A Yeah, I had a few.
10 Q What do you mean by a few?
11 A Just what I said, a few.
12 Q Did you have a file cabinet in
13 there?
14 A I had a file cabinet.
15 Q More than one file cabinet?
16 A I had either one or two. I don't
17 recall.
18 Q Were they lateral file cabinets or
19 some other type?
20 A They were, one was an upright and
21 one was a lateral, as I recall.
22 Q Did you have someone assist you in
43
1 keeping documents in those file cabinets?
2 A No. I kept them myself.
3 Q Did your wife help you store those
4 documents in the file cabinets?
5 A No.
6 Q Did those documents relate to, in
7 part, the 1992 Primary campaign of Governor
8 Clinton?
9 A As I said before, I don't recall
10 keeping any documents from the '92 campaign
11 other than maybe some lists of names and
12 newspaper clips, but I haven't looked in a
13 long time.
14 Q Up to the point that you letted
15 that apartment, you leased that apartment,
16 did you have any other residences where you
17 stayed?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Where were they?
20 A One was on Fire Island, New York,
21 and one was in Washington, D.C.
22 Q Where was the one on Fire Island,
44
1 New York?
2 A Salt Air.
3 Q It's called Salt Air?
4 A Yes.
5 Q What was the address?
6 A 113 Pacific Walk.
7 Q Do you still retain that property?
8 A I do.
9 Q Is anyone living there now? Did
10 you rent it?
11 A What?
12 Q Did you rent it or do you use it as
13 a kind of a get away place?
14 A Both.
15 Q Do you have currently file cabinets
16 in that facility or any type of storage
17 mechanism for documents?
18 A Would you define storage mechanism
19 for documents?
20 Q Well, any place where you store
21 documents, file cabinets, boxes.
22 A Shelves.
45
1 Q Shelves, yes, anything like that.
2 A Including a floor?
3 Q Yeah, right.
4 A There is a floor there in the
5 house.
6 Q Are there documents on the floor?
7 A I haven't been there in quite a
8 while. I don't know if there are or not.
9 There are probably some newspapers lying
10 around.
11 Q Did you keep any documents there of
12 prior work experiences, are you keeping
13 documents there?
14 A We keep newspapers, books, a lot of
15 trash. Those are all documents. I mean I'm
16 just going by your definition, Mr. Klayman,
17 this broad definition you have in your
18 subpoena. I assume that you're referencing
19 the word documents to that. We even have
20 some, we have some videotapes. We have some
21 audio tapes on shelves, a lot of old
22 newspapers. There's some scratch pads lying
46
1 around, a lot of documents there.
2 Q Are there any documents that were
3 generated during your period of working in
4 the Clinton Primary campaign, Presidential
5 campaign or at the White House, any such
6 documents there?
7 A I would doubt it.
8 Q But you're not sure.
9 A I'm not sure, but I have a high
10 degree of doubt that there are.
11 Q Why would you doubt that?
12 A Just because I do.
13 Q You have no reason; you just think
14 that it's okay to say you doubt it.
15 A I said -- you asked me a question.
16 I answered the question, Mr. Klayman. I
17 doubt that there are records there in
18 connection of the type that you just talked
19 about.
20 Q Well, what leads you to doubt that?
21 A Because I don't think that there
22 are.
47
1 Q But you didn't search in response
2 to Judicial Watch's subpoena, Exhibit 1, in
3 that facility, did you?
4 A I did not.
5 Q No one else did either, did they?
6 A No, they didn't.
7 Q Now, this other property that
8 you've had in Washington, D.C., where is
9 that?
10 MS. SABRIN: We'd be happy to
11 supply that information about his residential
12 address to you off the record. But since you
13 insist on making these videotapes public, we
14 prefer not to have his home address on the
15 record.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: You can give it to me
17 off the record. I don't have any problem
18 with that. Let's just talk about the
19 Washington facility and then you can give it
20 to me off the record, the address.
21 MS. SABRIN: Okay.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
48
1 Q When did you acquire that
2 Washington address?
3 A Which one?
4 Q Do you have more than one?
5 A No.
6 Q Is this an apartment that you own,
7 a house or a townhouse?
8 A Well, I've lived in more than one.
9 So my question is which one are you talking
10 about.
11 Q Which one are you currently living
12 in?
13 A Oh, the one I'm living in. You
14 weren't clear in your question. I'm living
15 in a house here in Washington, D.C.
16 Q Where is that located?
17 A Off the record?
18 MS. SABRIN: Can you give the
19 general neighborhood?
20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
21 Q Just the general neighborhood.
22 We'll identify where it is later.
49
1 A Oh, okay. It's in Georgetown.
2 Q What street is it on?
3 MS. SABRIN: Mr. Klayman, we'll
4 provide the --
5 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking for
6 the address.
7 MS. SABRIN: We'll provide the
8 information to you off the record.
9 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine. It's
10 not funny. I'm just trying to get some
11 identification what part of Georgetown.
12 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
13 Q Do you own that house?
14 A No.
15 Q Do you rent it?
16 A Yes.
17 Q How long have you been living
18 there?
19 A Since approximately midsummer of,
20 June or July of 1994.
21 Q So you occupied that house not too
22 long after you became Assistant to the
50
1 President and Deputy Chief of Staff.
2 A Whatever the facts are, the facts
3 are. I don't want to characterize it.
4 Q Backing up to the property at 16
5 West 77th Street, which you've rented, I take
6 it when you rented that facility you moved
7 the file cabinets and documents that were in
8 it?
9 A I did.
10 Q Where did you move those documents,
11 to the Washington facility?
12 A Some of the documents were moved
13 into storage and some of the documents,
14 whatever documents I had relating to the
15 Presidential campaign, the most recent
16 Presidential campaign were moved down here.
17 Q What storage facility did you move
18 the documents to from the 16 West 77th Street
19 facility?
20 A To a storage facility in 16
21 West 77th Street.
22 Q What storage facility is that?