51
1 A It's a storage facility in 16
2 West 77th Street.
3 Q What's the name of it?
4 A It doesn't have a name.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Sabrin, I'll
6 allow you to identify it later, but I want
7 the particular name of that storage facility.
8 A It doesn't have a name,
9 Mr. Klayman. You are asking for something
10 that's impossible to give you.
11 Q Well, what type of facility is it?
12 A It's a storage facility.
13 Q Is it somebody else's house, is it
14 a commercial storage facility?
15 A It's not somebody else's house and
16 the answer to both of those questions is no.
17 Q What kind of storage facility is
18 it?
19 A It's a storage facility. It's a
20 place where stuff is stored.
21 Q Who owns it?
22 A The co-op apartment does.
52
1 Q Is it in the same building that you
2 had your apartment?
3 A Asked and answered.
4 Q I'm sorry, I may have
5 misunderstood. I'm trying to move this
6 along, Mr. Ickes.
7 A I am, too. I just asked and
8 answered that question about --
9 Q I think if we're willing to try to
10 cooperate with each other here, we can move
11 quickly.
12 A Mr. Klayman, I'm cooperating. I'm
13 here on a voluntary basis. There's nothing
14 I'd rather do than answer your questions.
15 Q Well, you're --
16 A But I'll tell you one thing,
17 Mr. Klayman -- please don't interrupt me. I
18 don't like to answer questions two or three
19 times. Now, you just criticized me for a
20 short memory. Surely, you can remember what
21 questions you just asked.
22 Q Mr. Ickes, I hope that we can get
53
1 along during this deposition.
2 A I'm sure we will.
3 Q These kinds of remarks, I think
4 you'll quickly learn, have no effect on me.
5 A I wasn't hoping to have an effect
6 on you, Mr. Klayman. I was just pointing out
7 the facts. I don't care whether I have an
8 effect on you or not.
9 Q I will ask the questions as many
10 times as it takes to get an answer.
11 A Good.
12 Q If we cannot move this thing along
13 and cannot complete this testimony today,
14 then we will go to the court and point out
15 how many times you've given evasive answers,
16 have short memories and, frankly, have tried
17 to trifle with this process.
18 So I suggest that we just get right
19 to it and lay the facts on the record. I
20 want to know where is the storage facility?
21 A The facts are on the record,
22 Mr. Klayman. Have the court reporter read it
54
1 back. Obviously, you can't remember what you
2 even asked. Have the court reporter read it
3 back. The witness does not have to answer a
4 question that has already been asked and
5 answered.
6 Q I will certainly do that. But is
7 the storage facility in the same building
8 that the apartment is located?
9 A Asked and answered, Mr. Klayman.
10 Q We'll go to the court to the extent
11 that you want to play these kinds of games,
12 Mr. Ickes. But I'll have it read back this
13 once just to accommodate you.
14 A You're not accommodating me.
15 You're accommodating yourself.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: Read it back, please.
17 (The reporter read the record as
18 requested.)
19 THE WITNESS: There's your answer,
20 Mr. Klayman.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q I'm entitled to ask the question,
55
1 Mr. Ickes, is that the same building?
2 A You didn't ask that question.
3 Q Well, I'm asking the question now.
4 A Oh, okay. I'm perfectly happy to
5 answer that. It is. In New York 16
6 West 77th is 16 West 77th.
7 Q Where is the storage facility
8 located in that building?
9 A In the basement.
10 Q How big is the storage facility?
11 A The storage facility I use or the
12 whole storage facility?
13 Q The storage facility that you use.
14 A It's, I don't know, I'm not good on
15 sizes. It's relatively small.
16 Q Square footage, roughly speaking.
17 A I have no idea. I'd have to
18 measure it.
19 Q Did you move the file cabinets
20 themselves with the documents down to that
21 storage facility?
22 A Yes.
56
1 Q Is that storage facility locked, is
2 it penned in or any kind of security
3 mechanism?
4 A It's locked.
5 Q You have the key?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Does anyone else have the key?
8 A I don't know. The superintendent
9 probably has one. But as I said,
10 Mr. Klayman, although you may have forgotten
11 it, my best recollection is that the records
12 that pertain, any records that I had that
13 pertain to the '92 campaign, my best
14 recollection is that I brought them down
15 here. I think that they have also been
16 searched in response to other subpoenas.
17 Q Have you ever revealed to anyone
18 other than Judicial Watch during the
19 deposition today that you have that storage
20 facility at 16 West 77th Street?
21 A Have I revealed to anyone?
22 Q Yes.
57
1 A Oh, yeah. I've revealed it to a
2 lot of people.
3 Q Who did you reveal it to?
4 A What?
5 Q Any Federal authorities?
6 A I don't recall whether I was ever
7 asked before.
8 Q So as far as you know, no one else
9 knows that you have that storage facility in
10 terms of Federal authorities?
11 MS. SABRIN: Objection.
12 Mischaracterized his answer.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Correct?
15 A What?
16 Q No one knows that these documents
17 exist in terms of Federal authorities.
18 A I have no idea what the Federal
19 authorities know.
20 Q Are you aware that there was a
21 committee, Government Affairs Committee,
22 Senator Thompson, investigating certain
58
1 things last fall? You testified in front of
2 that committee?
3 A I did testify in front of it.
4 Q Did you ever testify or provide any
5 information to Senator Thompson's staff that
6 such a storage facility exists?
7 A I'd have to refer you to
8 Ms. Sabrin. She was my lawyer at that time.
9 Q Do you recall whether you advised
10 anyone?
11 A I just answered that question.
12 Q You are refusing to answer?
13 A I'm not refusing to answer
14 anything. I'm referring you to Ms. Sabrin,
15 who is my lawyer. I don't know who she
16 advised.
17 Q I'll take it as a refusal to
18 answer; and certify it.
19 MS. SABRIN: Mr. Klayman, I would
20 like to remind you that he testified
21 previously.
22 MR. KLAYMAN: Please don't provide
59
1 testimony, Ms. Sabrin. Please do not.
2 MS. SABRIN: Well, you've had --
3 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm asking you not to
4 pollute the record. We've been through this
5 in prior depositions.
6 MS. SABRIN: I'd like the record to
7 reflect asked and answered as to whether
8 those documents have been searched. So I
9 think this whole line of questioning is
10 irrelevant.
11 MR. KLAYMAN: I did not ask that
12 question, but I'm getting to it.
13 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
14 Q Mr. Ickes, are you coming back to
15 testify?
16 A Am I what?
17 Q Are you coming back to testify? I
18 see you've walked off.
19 MS. SABRIN: Are you objecting to
20 him obtaining a glass of water?
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Not at all. I just
22 want to know if he's coming back.
60
1 THE WITNESS: Do I have to?
2 MR. KLAYMAN: Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay, then I will.
4 MS. SABRIN: He's coming back
5 voluntarily.
6 THE WITNESS: Then I will.
7 MR. KLAYMAN: I know he's doing
8 everything voluntarily.
9 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
10 Q Did you search that storage
11 facility in response to Judicial Watch's
12 subpoena, the one on 77th Street, New York?
13 A Mr. Klayman, for the third time,
14 just to accommodate you, seeing as how you
15 probably forgot what you asked, and you
16 certainly must have forgotten my answer, but
17 for the third time, it's my best recollection
18 that all of the documents that pertain to
19 the '92 campaign, which were few indeed,
20 again to the best of my recollection, I
21 brought down here.
22 Q I'm not asking about just the '92
61
1 campaign. I'm asking generally. Did you
2 search the documents in the storage facility
3 at 77th Street in New York to see if there
4 were documents responsive to Judicial Watch's
5 subpoena, which is Exhibit 1?
6 A Well, as I understand the subpoena,
7 there would be no documents, to my knowledge,
8 in that storage facility other than documents
9 pertaining to the 1992 campaign, and I've
10 already answered that.
11 Q But you did not search that
12 facility.
13 MS. SABRIN: Again, I would like
14 the record to reflect his testimony which was
15 that he, as you know, this is not the first
16 subpoena Mr. Ickes has ever received from
17 anyone. Those documents were culled in
18 response to other subpoenas and obtained; and
19 they are no longer in that facility. To the
20 extent that there are documents that would
21 fall within the ambit of this subpoena,
22 they've been brought down a long time ago and
62
1 that's what he's testified to already.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: You are on notice
3 with the prior deposition not to do this, not
4 to provide testimony. We will be moving for
5 sanctions for this. You're on notice,
6 continuing notice that we will be moving.
7 This is inappropriate to provide testimony.
8 A Do you always threaten people this
9 way, Mr. Klayman? You're a big threatener, I
10 guess, uh?
11 Q Are you threatening me, Mr. Ickes?
12 A Huh-uh. I was just asking you a
13 question. I mean I was reading with some
14 degree of interest your sanctions by Judge
15 Chin that was upheld by the Second Circuit
16 and your, for mischaracterization and racial
17 implications, and then you got sanctioned out
18 there in California, didn't you, before the
19 District Central District Court of California
20 for --
21 Q Anything else you'd like to say,
22 Mr. Ickes?
63
1 A No, no, no. I just --
2 Q Get it off your chest.
3 A No, no, no. For a fellow who runs
4 around squawking about sanctions, you ought
5 to know a lot about them.
6 Q Anything else you want to get off
7 your chest?
8 A I have nothing to get off my chest,
9 Mr. Klayman. I just wanted to note your
10 expertise when it comes to sanctions, having
11 been the subject of sanctions yourself by
12 pretty eminent courts.
13 Q Well, Mr. Ickes, we will explore
14 exactly how you learned about those later.
15 A I can read.
16 Q Oh, I'm sure you can. Anything
17 else you'd like to say? Please feel free.
18 Just tell us anything that's on your mind.
19 A Go ahead, Mr. Klayman. To quote
20 you, let's move it along.
21 Q That's a very good idea.
22 A Glad you agree.
64
1 Q I'm asking your counsel not to
2 interject with your testimony. As a lawyer,
3 I think you can appreciate that I'm entitled
4 to your response without having your lawyer
5 give you that response.
6 A I don't think she was giving you
7 testimony.
8 Q She has been on notice not to do
9 that.
10 A Yeah, but I don't think she was
11 giving you testimony. I think she was giving
12 you an explanation.
13 Q Well, you're on notice, Mr. Ickes,
14 if this conduct continues we will be moving
15 the court. I mean I can see it now, we're
16 wasting all this time with your gratuitous
17 remarks and insults and comments and,
18 frankly, wise cracks. This is not
19 appropriate at a deposition. I'd like to
20 keep it within an appropriate decorum.
21 A Let's move on then.
22 Q Did you search that storage
65
1 facility at 77th Street in response to
2 Judicial Watch's subpoena?
3 A Asked and answered.
4 Q You're refusing to answer?
5 A Asked and answered.
6 MS. SABRIN: He's answered. Asked
7 and answered.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it.
9 THE WITNESS: Asked and answered.
10 Have the court reporter read it back.
11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
12 Q I'm putting you on notice.
13 A No, no, no.
14 Q I'm putting you on notice.
15 A Don't threaten me, first of all.
16 Q I'm not threatening you. I'm
17 putting you on notice.
18 A I've asked the court reporter to
19 read the record back because you're
20 certifying my alleged non-answer of a
21 question that was asked and answered and that
22 you can't remember.
66
1 Could you have the court reporter
2 read it back, please.
3 Q No, no. We're not going to disrupt
4 the deposition. I know what I can remember,
5 Mr. Ickes.
6 A I want the court reporter to read
7 it back for the record.
8 Q We will conduct this deposition --
9 A I have a right to that. You asked
10 me a question. I'm asking the court reporter
11 to read it back.
12 Q You never responded to my question
13 whether you searched.
14 MS. SABRIN: He did respond. It's
15 asked and answered.
16 THE WITNESS: Read it back. You
17 can't remember what you asked. That's your
18 problem.
19 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll indulge you one
20 more time, Mr. Ickes. Read it back. Direct
21 the court reporter where it is. This will
22 not count against our time, but yours.
67
1 (The reporter read the record as
2 requested.)
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q It's clear, Mr. Ickes, you didn't
5 answer the question.
6 A It's not clear that I didn't answer
7 it.
8 Q Why don't you just answer it now
9 and we can move it along.
10 A Go back and read the whole
11 deposition.
12 Q Why don't you just answer it again?
13 A No. Let's go back and read the
14 whole deposition.
15 Q We can make it simple or we can
16 play games. Let's try to make it simple.
17 A I'm not playing games. I'm not
18 answering questions that I've already
19 answered, Mr. Klayman. I answered that
20 question. It's on the record. You can go
21 back and read it.
22 Q Well, it is on the record and you
68
1 didn't answer it. So we'll certify that one,
2 too.
3 A You're wrong about that.
4 Q We'll certify that one, too.
5 A You're incorrect about that,
6 Mr. Klayman.
7 Q Now, what documents did you store
8 or are you storing in that facility?
9 A In which facility?
10 Q On 77th Street.
11 MS. SABRIN: I'd object to
12 relevancy unless you want to limit it to
13 whether there are documents related to your
14 subpoena in that facility.
15 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, we're entitled
16 to get an understanding what's in there for
17 identification purposes.
18 A Would you repeat the --
19 Q What's in there? What documents
20 did you store at that facility in 77th Street
21 when you transferred it from your apartment
22 downstairs to the storage facility?
69
1 A Videotapes, audio tapes, paper
2 plates, a lot of newspapers, newspaper clips,
3 a lot of other documents. I'd have to go
4 back and look at the inventory. All I can
5 tell you for the fourth time is that it is my
6 best recollection that all of the documents
7 pertaining to the '92 campaign I brought down
8 here.
9 Q My question wasn't limited to
10 the '92 campaign. I take it you haven't
11 inventoried these documents.
12 A I don't.
13 Q You just said you did.
14 A No, I said I would have to look at
15 them.
16 Q You said you'll have to check your
17 inventory.
18 A No, no. I said I would have to
19 look at the documents to see what was there.
20 Q You have an inventory of those
21 documents, don't you?
22 A No, I don't. A lot of books are
70
1 there, magazines.
2 Q From the point that you moved the
3 file cabinets with the documents down to the
4 storage facility to today, have you removed
5 any documents from that facility?
6 A Not to the best of my recollection.
7 Q So they're all there, everything
8 that you moved.
9 A I haven't seen it in a long time.
10 Maybe an earthquake took it away.
11 Q Do you have any knowledge whether
12 there's been an earthquake in New York City
13 anytime in the last ten years?
14 A A lot of things happen in New York,
15 you know. Water mains break.
16 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm providing notice,
17 Ms. Sabrin, not to move those documents, not
18 to alter those documents, not to do anything
19 with those documents. We will be requesting
20 court intervention.
21 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
22 Q The place where you've lived in
71
1 Washington, D.C. in Georgetown I take it you
2 do keep documents there. Correct?
3 A I do.
4 Q Did you move any documents from New
5 York, any of your two places in New York that
6 we thus far know of, to Washington, D.C. when
7 you occupied that residence?
8 A Asked and answered.
9 Q Please respond.
10 A Asked and answered.
11 Q Are you refusing to respond?
12 A No. I've already responded.
13 Q Certify it.
14 A Three times.
15 Q Certify it. What documents do you
16 currently have in that residence?
17 MS. SABRIN: Objection, relevancy.
18 Why don't you get to the point and ask him
19 whether he searched the residence from your
20 subpoena.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond.
22 MS. SABRIN: Then we can cut
72
1 through this and move on.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: We can do it a simple
3 way by trying to ask questions and hopefully
4 get candid and truthful responses,
5 Ms. Sabrin, or we can seek other measures.
6 MS. SABRIN: Well, I would like to
7 hear you explain what relevance it is what
8 the total universe of documents are that are
9 in his home. If you want to ask him --
10 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm just identifying
11 it. I'm just identifying it by general
12 subject matter.
13 MS. SABRIN: Well, what right do
14 you have to that information relevant to this
15 lawsuit?
16 MR. KLAYMAN: To see whether it may
17 lead to relevant evidence.
18 MS. SABRIN: You subpoenaed
19 documents from him. He voluntarily produced
20 documents. Why don't you get to the point
21 and ask him whether he searched his home for
22 those documents, instead of surveying this
73
1 man's personal life and personal belongings.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: I've seen the
3 demeanor of this witness and I see the lack
4 of cooperation, and I see the insults. I see
5 the remarks. I obviously am not at the point
6 where I'm going to accept what's said. So I
7 need to be able to find out what's there to
8 be able to take further action.
9 MS. SABRIN: I don't understand how
10 finding out what's there accomplishes even
11 your end, when what you want to know is
12 whether he's responded to the subpoena.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: That's enough. I'll
14 conduct the deposition.
15 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
16 Q Mr. Ickes, what documents,
17 generically speaking, are stored in your
18 residence in Georgetown?
19 A Would you define the term
20 "generic"?
21 Q Just the general subject matter of
22 the documents. What do they relate to?
74
1 A Books and papers.
2 Q Now, you left the White House, I
3 take it, on January 20th of 1997. Correct?
4 A At around that time, yes.
5 Q When you left the White House, you
6 took about 50 boxes of documents with you.
7 Correct?
8 A I don't know what the number were.
9 Q There were many boxes of documents
10 that you took.
11 A Well, I don't want to characterize
12 the word "many." There were a number of
13 boxes that I did take, yes.
14 Q It's been reported in the New York
15 Times that you took 50 boxes of documents.
16 Correct?
17 A I don't know what's been reported.
18 MR. KLAYMAN: I'll show you what
19 I'll ask the court reporter to mark as
20 Exhibit 4.
21 (Ickes Deposition Exhibit No. 4
22 was marked for identification.)
75
1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
2 Q Showing you Exhibit 4, have you
3 ever seen this article before?
4 A The article, which article are you
5 referring to? There's two articles here.
6 Q It begins at the bottom here. It's
7 New York Times Company, September 21st, 1997,
8 Sunday, Late Edition, Final. It is called
9 Bill Clinton's Garbage Man.
10 A Yes, I have.
11 Q This article is written about you,
12 right?
13 A Yes. I haven't seen it in this
14 form, but I've seen the article.
15 Q It was written by Michael Lewis.
16 Correct?
17 A The document speaks for itself.
18 Q It was written by Michael Lewis?
19 A The document speaks for itself.
20 Q You remember Michael Lewis
21 interviewing you for this article?
22 A I remember him interviewing me,
76
1 yes.
2 Q Yes. You remember reading this
3 article after it came out?
4 A I did read it.
5 Q You're the person that's referred
6 to in the headline?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Turn to Page 2, which is Page 21
9 off of this Nexis printout, wherein it
10 states, Paragraph 2, "Once he'd finished with
11 his official checkout, he trundled box after
12 cardboard box down from his office into the
13 parking lot. Janice Enright, his White House
14 assistant, had parked her car in the first
15 slot behind the West Wing exit and Ickes
16 filled it up to the brim, several times over.
17 In all, he carried out about 50 boxes
18 groaning with papers, news clippings, fund
19 raising documents, private notes scribbled
20 during White House meetings, private memos to
21 the President."
22 Now, you told Mr. Lewis that,
77
1 didn't you?
2 A I'm not sure. I'd have to look at
3 his notes. But there were --
4 Q Mr. Lewis?
5 A Mr. Klayman, as you say, let's move
6 it along. I took, whether it was 50 boxes
7 or 60 boxes or 40 boxes or 30 boxes, there
8 were a number of boxes in that range of, you
9 know, 35 to 50 or so boxes.
10 Q Before you took those boxes filled
11 with documents, did you seek any kind of
12 authorization from the White House to take
13 them?
14 A I took the documents that I felt
15 that I was permitted to take under the
16 guidance that I had been given by the White
17 House Counsel's office.
18 Q Who gave you guidance from the
19 White House Counsel's office, the name of the
20 person?
21 A Yeah, I don't recall her name, but
22 it was a young woman who was working in the
78
1 White House Counsel's office.
2 Q Was it Ms. Paxton who is sitting at
3 the table today?
4 A It was not.
5 Q Did you keep any kind of notation
6 of the person who gave you that guidance?
7 A I don't recall that I did.
8 Q Was anything put in writing?
9 A When you say was anything put in
10 writing, what do you mean?
11 Q Was the guidance put in writing as
12 to what documentation you could take and that
13 which you could not take?
14 A As I recall it, she gave me an oral
15 briefing.
16 Q You took notes of the briefing?
17 A I don't recall whether I did or
18 didn't.
19 Q Now, you are a note taker, aren't
20 you, Mr. Ickes? You do take notes from time
21 to time?
22 A From time to time.
79
1 Q In fact, your reputation is to be
2 one who records things with notes. Correct?
3 A I have been known to take notes
4 from time to time.
5 Q Yes. You took down what this young
6 lady told you about what documents you could
7 take and those which you couldn't. Correct?
8 A I just answered that question.
9 Q Yes or no?
10 A I answered the question,
11 Mr. Klayman.
12 MR. KLAYMAN: Certify it. What did
13 this woman look like? How tall was she?
14 A I don't recall.
15 Q Roughly speaking.
16 A I don't recall.
17 Q What color hair?
18 A I don't recall.
19 Q All you recall is the sex.
20 A She was a woman, yes.
21 Q No name, can't remember what she
22 looked like.
80
1 A No.
2 Q Where did you meet with her?
3 A I met with her in my office. She
4 came down to my office.
5 Q Roughly speaking, what day was
6 that?
7 A I don't recall whether it was -- I
8 think it was sometime in January. It may
9 have been in December.
10 Q What was this woman's title in the
11 White House Counsel's office?
12 A I don't know all the titles. I
13 think she was an Associate Counsel.
14 Q Who did this woman work with?
15 A I don't know. She worked in the
16 counsel's office. I don't know. Other than
17 that, I couldn't tell you.
18 Q Did she have blonde hair, brown
19 hair, red hair?
20 A As I said, I don't recall the color
21 of her hair. I don't think it was red, but I
22 don't recall the color of her hair.
81
1 Q Was she with anybody?
2 A On the day that she briefed me, no.
3 She came in by herself, as I recall.
4 Q When you took the 50 boxes of
5 documents, did anyone check them before they
6 left the premises?
7 A No.
8 Q Who helped you box the documents
9 up?
10 A I boxed them myself.
11 Q Did Ms. Enright help you?
12 A No. I boxed them.
13 Q Did Ms. Enright know what you were
14 taking?
15 A I don't think she did.
16 Q Ms. Enright was your assistant,
17 correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Were there things other than
20 documents in the boxes, videotapes, dictation
21 tapes, cassettes?
22 A Yeah, well, I was --
82
1 Q As we've defined "documents" in the
2 subpoena.
3 A Yeah, there were some videotapes.
4 I don't recall there were -- cassettes, you
5 mean these little cassettes you put on, like
6 he has.
7 Q Video cassettes?
8 A No, no.
9 Q Super 8 cassettes?
10 A When you're talking about cassettes
11 are you talking about a video cassette or
12 audio cassettes.
13 Q Audio cassette.
14 A Audio cassette, that's what I
15 thought you meant. I don't recall. There
16 may have been one or two audio cassettes, but
17 there were some video cassettes.
18 Q Were those documents inventoried?
19 A What do you mean by that?
20 Q Did you keep a list of what it is
21 you were taking?
22 A I don't think I kept a list. I
83
1 mean they were just in boxes. Then I
2 subsequently have turned virtually every box
3 over to Ms. Sabrin and Mr. Bennett.
4 Q Basically, you took everything in
5 your office. Correct?
6 A No.
7 Q What did you leave behind?
8 A Many documents, many papers,
9 many -- furniture. But I left a lot of
10 documents, many, many boxes of documents.
11 Q Generically speaking, what
12 documents did you leave behind?
13 A Documents that were in my office.
14 Q Such as?
15 A Documents that were -- documents
16 that were across the street in the office
17 where interns worked for me. I left many,
18 many boxes of documents.
19 Q Tell me how you determined what
20 documents you could take and those documents
21 which should be left behind. What were your
22 criteria?
84
1 A My criteria was based on what I
2 recall the woman from the counsel's office
3 telling me that I could take, or that I had
4 to leave behind and that I could take.
5 Q What were those criteria that the
6 counsel's office woman told you?
7 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm going to object
8 and instruct him not to respond to what
9 counsel told him. If he has a general
10 recollection about what he did, he can
11 testify to that, but not to what counsel told
12 him.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: This isn't legal
14 advice. This is based on guidelines and
15 whether you can take government documents.
16 MS. SHAPIRO: It is exactly legal
17 advice.
18 A Now what do I do?
19 Q Well, then let's ask it a different
20 way. Since he's basing it, I object to that
21 and certify it.
22 But since you are saying that you
85
1 had an understanding of what the criteria
2 were, at that time, tell me what that
3 criteria was.
4 A I couldn't, you know, I could
5 not -- this happened now nearly two years
6 ago. I don't think I could recite for you in
7 any degree the criteria. My general
8 recollection, Mr. Klayman, is that documents
9 that, notes that I had taken for my personal
10 use, things like that, certainly political
11 documents, could be taken out. The bulk of
12 them, as I recall, were political documents.
13 When I say political documents, relating to
14 the campaign of the DNC, Democratic National
15 Committee.
16 Q You also took documents of what you
17 did at the White House, notes that you took
18 during the period that you were at the White
19 House. Correct?
20 A I took some notes. But many of
21 those notes were in connection with political
22 activity.
86
1 Q Before you left the White House,
2 did you destroy any documents that you had
3 kept during the period that you were there?
4 A Oh, I destroyed documents -- when
5 you say destroyed, I threw stuff away. I
6 mean we all throw stuff away.
7 Q As you were trying to gather the
8 documents to leave, when you took the
9 roughly 50 boxes, did you shred any
10 documents?
11 A No, I didn't shred any documents.
12 Q Did you discard any documents?
13 A I discarded some documents, yes.
14 Q Where did you discard them?
15 A In the waste paper basket.
16 Q Did you discard them in other types
17 of receptacles? Did you use a shredder?
18 MS. SABRIN: Asked and answered.
19 A Asked and answered.
20 Q Did somebody else shred it for you?
21 A No. Not that I know of. I mean I
22 don't know what people did after they came
87
1 in, somebody came in and picked up documents,
2 you know, emptied the trash and picked up
3 documents every night at the White House. I
4 don't know what they did with them.
5 Q These documents that you took,
6 the 50 boxes, what were the general subject
7 matters of the different documents?
8 A I don't want to adhere to your
9 claim that there were 50. I've given you my
10 estimate of them. But putting that aside for
11 the moment, would you repeat your question?
12 Q What were the general subject
13 matters of the different types of documents
14 that you took with you when you left the
15 White House?
16 A I'd have to go over to Ms. Sabrin's
17 office and look at them, because virtually
18 all of them are over there at this point.
19 But as I said before, that they related to --
20 they were some of the notes that I had taken
21 for my personal use at the White House.
22 There were a lot of newspaper, huge number of
88
1 newspaper clips, unread magazines, and there
2 were a number of documents pertaining to the
3 Democratic National Committee and pertaining
4 to the Clinton/Gore campaign.
5 Q You took notes, correct, some of
6 the documents were notes?
7 MS. SABRIN: Asked and answered.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Correct?
10 A I've answered that, Mr. Klayman.
11 Q Some of the documents were copies
12 of letters?
13 A There may have been some copies,
14 yes, there were copies of letters.
15 Q Some of the documents were
16 memoranda?
17 A There were copies of memorandum
18 that I took.
19 Q Of course video cassettes and audio
20 cassettes, we already went over that.
21 A As I recall, virtually all if not
22 all -- I think all of those cassettes were
89
1 related to the political activity.
2 Q Did you search the documents which
3 you gave to counsel in response to Judicial
4 Watch's subpoena? You, Harold Ickes.
5 A No, I did not.
6 Q I take it you are not aware of
7 anyone searching those documents in response
8 to our subpoena.
9 A My counsel informed me that she
10 searched. She's very familiar with these
11 documents, having been through them too many
12 times to count, and she conducted the search.
13 Q Did she show you whether or not or
14 did she tell you whether or not she found
15 documents that were responsive to Judicial
16 Watch's subpoena?
17 MS. SABRIN: I'd like to object to
18 the extent that you are asking for
19 communications between counsel and the
20 client.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: Just identification
22 of the documents.
90
1 MS. SABRIN: We produced over 400
2 pages of documents here today.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: This is just
4 identifying whether documents were produced.
5 It has nothing to do with attorney-client
6 communication.
7 MS. SABRIN: It does have to do
8 with attorney-client communications since
9 obviously we've produced documents, we've
10 given them to you. I'm not going to instruct
11 him not to answer any questions about what
12 I've discussed with him.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: Ms. Sabrin, if you
14 instructed or if you told him that you found
15 documents that were responsive and they were
16 not produced, then obviously we're entitled
17 to know that.
18 MS. SABRIN: Well, I don't
19 understand first of all, your premise. It's
20 totally unfounded. Second of all, you're not
21 entitled to know my conversations with my
22 client, no matter what the subject matter of
91
1 them was.
2 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm not asking for
3 the conversations. I'm just asking whether
4 he was told that you found documents that
5 were responsive and whether they all were
6 produced. I want to verify that. If I can't
7 verify that, I'm going to have to ask for
8 leave to take your deposition.
9 MS. SABRIN: Mr. Klayman, we
10 produced 400 pages of documents-plus today.
11 So I will tell you for the record, some of
12 them came from those files.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: I don't want to hear
14 it. I don't want to hear it. I want it from
15 him.
16 MS. SABRIN: He's told you that he
17 left it to me to search. So I'm telling
18 you --
19 MR. KLAYMAN: So you're assuming
20 responsibility.
21 MS. SABRIN: I am telling you for
22 the record that we have produced any
92
1 responsive, non-objectionable documents that
2 were in those files to you today.
3 MR. KLAYMAN: You are on notice,
4 Ms. Sabrin, we will be serving a subpoena on
5 your firm. So do not move those documents or
6 alter them in any way.
7 MS. SABRIN: I would like to say
8 for the record, since you're implying that,
9 that those documents have been preserved in
10 tack since they have been provided to us.
11 You implied that we destroyed documents, and
12 I'm entitled to put on the record that that
13 is totally unfounded.
14 MR. KLAYMAN: I haven't implied
15 anything.
16 MS. SABRIN: Mr. Ickes has produced
17 thousands of pages of documents to Congress,
18 as is very well known. We produced 400-plus
19 pages to you today and I resent that
20 implication.
21 MR. KLAYMAN: I will ask for leave
22 before I do it, and there is no such
93
1 implication. But to the extent I cannot get
2 information about what he produced and how
3 the search was done, then I have to proceed
4 and ask the court for permission to proceed
5 with regard to the documents in your
6 possession.
7 MS. SABRIN: We'll take that up
8 with the court. You've gotten the
9 information you need.
10 MR. KLAYMAN: We will be taking it
11 up with the court. So certify this.
12 Your lawyer, who is your lawyer at
13 this firm? Is it Skadden Arps, the law firm?
14 A It is Skadden Arps, yes.
15 Q Do you have more than one lawyer at
16 that firm that is representing you on this
17 particular matter before Judicial Watch?
18 A I have two lawyers.
19 Q Who is it?
20 A They've already identified
21 themselves for the record.
22 Q Is Mr. Bob Bennett also your
94
1 counsel from that firm?
2 MS. SABRIN: For this matter?
3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
4 Q For this matter or any other
5 matter.
6 A He is also counsel to me, yes.
7 Q When you delivered up the boxes
8 from the White House to Skadden Arps, did you
9 provide them to Mr. Bennett?
10 A I provided them to Mr. Bennett,
11 Ms. Sabrin and Ms. Arbab who were my counsels
12 at that time.
13 Q Mr. Bennett is also counsel to the
14 President of the United States, correct?
15 A He is.
16 Q You say that you delivered most of
17 the documents to Mr. Bennett's firm, correct,
18 of the 50 boxes or so that you took from the
19 White House?
20 A Mmm-hmm.
21 Q Correct?
22 A Yes.
95
1 Q Where did the other documents go?
2 A They remained at my house.
3 Q What documents remained at your
4 house?
5 A I had personal documents, personal
6 checkbooks, personal correspondence, I think
7 documents that even you, Mr. Klayman, would
8 consider personal, documents from my old law
9 firm, a few of those I had. Those were the
10 kinds of things that I kept. But anything
11 that was remotely within the scope of the
12 many, many subpoenas that I have been served
13 since coming to Washington were delivered to
14 my lawyer so that they could make the
15 judgment as to what was responsive or not.
16 Q Have you ever verified to your
17 lawyer what documents you retain at your
18 house? Have you ever shown them those
19 documents?
20 A Have I ever shown them?
21 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
96
1 Q Yes. In other words, is there
2 anyone at the law firm of Skadden Arps know
3 specifically what documents you retain at
4 your house in Georgetown?
5 MS. SABRIN: I'm going to object
6 again to any communications with counsel, and
7 direct him not to answer.
8 MR. KLAYMAN: I didn't ask for
9 communications.
10 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
11 Q I said does anyone at Skadden Arps,
12 to the best of your knowledge, know
13 specifically what you have there in your home
14 in Georgetown?
15 MS. SABRIN: Mr. Klayman, that
16 would require him to divulge communications
17 with counsel. I am going to direct him not
18 to answer. Now, you have refused steadfastly
19 to ask him whether he searched his home for
20 documents responsive to the subpoena. We can
21 get to the point of this and move on to more
22 substantive matters if you would do that.
97
1 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm entitled to ask
2 questions the way I want to ask them.
3 MS. SABRIN: You are entitled, but
4 I don't want to hear any complaints that this
5 deposition has been held up because of us.
6 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, Ms. Sabrin,
7 first I'm entitled to find out what documents
8 exist and where they exist and where they're
9 stored and then ask him whether he stored the
10 documents.
11 MS. SABRIN: He's answered all
12 those questions.
13 MR. KLAYMAN: The reason I'm
14 entitled to do all three things is because
15 sometimes, no reflection on Mr. Ickes,
16 sometimes witnesses don't tell you everything
17 they know; and, therefore, this is the type
18 of discovery which allows you to then find
19 out what exists so you can follow up.
20 MS. SABRIN: Mr. Klayman, you've
21 asked him what documents exist at his home.
22 He's told you. He's told you what kind of
98
1 documents he retained from the White House at
2 his home. You refuse to ask the ultimate
3 question which is the only one that's
4 relevant here.
5 MR. KLAYMAN: It's not the only one
6 that's relevant. I will ask my questions and
7 I will proceed ahead.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Quite apart from your counsel, has
10 any Federal authority ever searched your
11 facility in Georgetown for the documents
12 which you stored there?
13 A Not to my knowledge.
14 Q Same question with regard to state
15 facility, Federal or state. Same answer?
16 A Same answer, not to my knowledge.
17 Q Has any Federal or state authority
18 ever searched the documents which you're
19 storing on 77th Street in New York City?
20 A Not to my knowledge.
21 Q Has any Federal or state authority
22 ever searched the documents which you retain
99
1 on Fire Island?
2 A Not to my knowledge.
3 Q Has any Federal or state authority
4 ever asked to do a search of those facilities
5 for documents?
6 A Not to my knowledge.
7 MS. SABRIN: Objection as to form.
8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:
9 Q Have you ever been deposed under
10 oath with regard to the documents in your
11 possession other than today?
12 A I'm sorry. Would you ask that --
13 Q Other than the deposition here
14 today, has anyone ever taken your deposition
15 and asked you questions such as I'm now
16 asking you about, where you keep and maintain
17 documents?
18 A Mr. Klayman, I've given testimony
19 under oath by way of deposition, by way of
20 Grand Jury, by way of Congressional
21 committee, Inspectors General and various
22 lawyers, 18 or 19 -- this is probably
100
1 the 19th or 20th time. I don't recall. I
2 know that I've been asked questions about
3 documents. The precise questions, I don't
4 know. But people have asked me about
5 questions about documents that I have.
6 Q Have they asked you about all the
7 places that you've stored documents?
8 A I couldn't verify that. I suspect
9 knowing some of the lawyers who have
10 questioned me, yes.
11 Q But you can't remember that.
12 A I can't recall.
13 Q Do you know of any written
14 transcripts which reflect that these
15 questions have been asked to you?
16 A Mr. Klayman, I have no idea. The
17 answer is no.
18 Q Our tax dollars at work.
19 A What does that mean?
20 Q Nothing.
21 A Well, could you explain it so that
22 I could understand what you're talking about?